Intersex Wolves

hi! i'd love to see intersex wolves be added to wolvden (i originally thought of these when looking at the post about adding same-sex pairs). having intersex wolves would make the game a lot more realistic, sex isn't binary, and i think that it would be great representation for intersex people (and non-binary people as well to an extent). I'm not sure how common being intersex is in wolves, but for humans it is estimated that up to 1.7% of the population is intersex, and that's just the people who happen to et their chromosomes tested or happen to find internal testes during an ultrasound, there are many people who are intersex and simply do not know, so i feel like this is something worth representing in wolvden.

if this does get implemented, there's a couple things i'd like to specify that i'd love to see incorporated. 

1: it's not a mutation or disease. part of the reason i'd love to see this shown is to decrease stigma around sex and gender variance, calling it a mutation only increases it. and mutations are often seen as rare, but intersex people are more common that most think..! 

2: when intersex babies are born doctors often assign them to one thing or the other without any consideration, and there are frequent unnecessary surgeries done, just for them to subscribe to being either male or female, and that is a really cruel, harsh, and pointless thing to do. in wolvden i'd like to see intersex wolves not be listed as male or female, but as a totally separate sex. for breeding i'm not sure how that would be incorporated, maybe they could breed with any other wolves, or intersex wolves could only breed with other intersex wolves. 

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i'd like to say that this was said as someone who isn't intersex, i am part of the lgbtq+ community (non-binary and bisexual), but i don't claim to know anything about the experiences of intersex people and what they would want in this, so if any intersex people are reading this please feel free to tell me what you'd like to see or contradict anything i said-- any suggestions i see i'll add the the list in this post so admins will be more likely to see it :) 

I think this would be super interesting, however, this would more likely than not results in intersex wolves being unable to breed. I welcome any correction if I am wrong, but in many cases with intersex, it often results in either infertility or complications when trying to produce a child. I know there are those who are intersex who can safely produce children, but this would be... very complicated and very tricky to implement in a game like this. 

This would definitely be something implemented waaaaay down the line since it would require a lot of research and a lot of consideration so as not to inaccurately represent something or offend... well anyone.

That said, I do think it's a bad idea! Definitely an interesting one.

If I may be frank, being intersex IS a mutation. It may be more common than originally thought, but it is a mutation regardless. Regarding your point about surgical removing, this is because one of the two reproductive systems is very underdeveloped and not even functional. An intersex person may have both sets, but one does not work, and is more of a nuisance/inconvenience. Infertility and other complications are unfortunately very common for them. 

This is a complicated and somewhat touchy issue. I would be opposed to it being added to the game. It would be difficult to implement and requires a lot of nuance.

No support with it being a 'feature' feature, but would support the option to set 'preferred' gender for wolves for aesthetic flavor.

This type of thing is something that's very sensitive and needs a lot of nuance and careful handling which I do not think can be achieved w/ the type of game WD is. As of right now as someone nonbinary just being able to put it in my wolf's bio info is enough - the only thing I want beyond that is the choice to set my wolf's pronouns so the flavor text uses they/them pronouns instead of only male/female pronouns.

Support for intersex mutations but on the note that they still be able to breed. Intersex would really only show up in the mutation slot, as it wouldn't have any physical appearance on the wolf, and if it doesn't affect gameplay it may just be useless.

I also offer support on @Jessi 's suggestion, preferred gender pronouns and other could be a very interesting way for players to navigate their lore and more. Though I do think that similar to intersex, it wouldn't provide any physical difference either and maybe not even a slot for it to go in.

I believe that if you have a low fertility wolf born, you can put in their name or bio that they are intersex which is the reason for their low fertility, and same goes for preferred gender and pronouns. The name, secondary name, and description are all the perfect place to write things down that are part of that character. I do believe intersex and trans are scientifically sound, biologically and other, I just want to state that. Trans rights. 

No support? I understand the existence of intersex people, and I'm not trying to drag them down. I'm more-or-less giving no support due to how sensitive and nuanced the issue is, and the complexity of ever incorporating it.

"it's not a mutation or disease. part of the reason i'd love to see this shown is to decrease stigma around sex and gender variance, calling it a mutation only increases it. and mutations are often seen as rare, but intersex people are more common that most think..! "

The thing is, intersex is a mutation. Though it isn't a disease. I understand the stigma with being intersex and how many individuals are discriminated against growing up. However, you can't just go against science and say that it isn't a mutation as a way to get rid of the stigma with being intersex. If anything that just creates a stigma with mutations in humans as a whole. The better way to handle it in our society is to accept that it is a mutation, but not treat others differently because it's just a part of nature. Also, a mutation being common doesn't automatically make it not a mutation. For example, point mutations are very common in humans. That mutation is what causes Sickle Cell Anemia. 

"when intersex babies are born doctors often assign them to one thing or the other without any consideration, and there are frequent unnecessary surgeries done, just for them to subscribe to being either male or female, and that is a really cruel, harsh, and pointless thing to do."

Not all intersex individuals are born with two functioning sets of systems. In fact, that's extremely rare. However, the debates on the surgeries is controversial, but it can have a point in some circumstances. For example, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) causes significant cancer risks (as high as 50%) to untreated and undecended male parts. Due to AIS, doctors (and the parents) often decide to remove those parts to save an intersex baby from possibly developing life-ending cancer early in life. In cases where the intersex parts don't pose a health risk, it's actually more left up to the parents. The doctors themselves (depending on the country) often don't have the final say. It's actually the parents. Sadly, even if every doctor was to refuse the procedure, the parents will likely just turn to illegal (and botched) operations.

"for breeding i'm not sure how that would be incorporated, maybe they could breed with any other wolves, or intersex wolves could only breed with other intersex wolves."

Unfortunately I don't see how this could be incorporated either. Fertility varies wildly with intersex individuals due to how different the physical parts can be and how they influence hormones. Some individuals have biological children just fine. Some are fertile, but if they are female-part dominate then there could be/is an issue with bearing children due to miscarriages/stillbirth, or a high risk of the parent dying from complications. Others are completely infertile/sterile due to poor hormone levels and/or having extremely ambiguous parts.

Not to mention, with the mechanics of nesting and such... How will this site effectively decide who's the, "giver," and the, "receiver," when it comes to intersex wolves. Again, intersex people that have both parts (that both function) is extremely rare. So are we just going to make an inaccurate generalization and say that intersex wolves can breed with every other wolf regardless of their sex? If intersex wolves can only breed with other intersex wolves, which one is going to nest? Is that decided by RNG when they're born? I don't think being willfully able to choose which one nests is accurate at all.

Like many of the things people have suggested for better representation, this is likely a thing better left in flavour text/people's headcanons ;u; I super hear where you're coming from, but unfortunately this doesn't work for just. Far too many reasons.

Now I do like the idea of having a built-in option to indicate your wolf's gender, but again, there's little need for that when I can just loudly scream at everyone who'll listen that 80% of my wolves are NB because I'm projecting djhgfjh

No support for all the reasons listed above. I wanted to comment on the logic of this post as well but didn't want to risk sounding insensitive; now that people with personal experience on the topic have responded I will not hold back.

That being said, I would love a way to change the gender of wolves, but not the sex itself. The game referring to my lead as female when he is male annoys me to no end.

Support for intersex mutations but on the note that they still be able to breed. Intersex would really only show up in the mutation slot, as it wouldn't have any physical appearance on the wolf, and if it doesn't affect gameplay it may just be useless

Not to mention, with the mechanics of nesting and such... How will this site effectively decide who's the, "giver," and the, "receiver," when it comes to intersex wolves. Again, intersex people that have both parts (that both function) is extremely rare. So are we just going to make an inaccurate generalization and say that intersex wolves can breed with every other wolf regardless of their sex? If intersex wolves can only breed with other intersex wolves, which one is going to nest?

Like many of the things people have suggested for better representation, this is likely a thing better left in flavour text/people's headcanons ;u; I super hear where you're coming from, but unfortunately this doesn't work for just. Far too many reasons.