Make Gaining Stats More Rewarding
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Make Gaining Stats More Rewarding
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Posted 2022-03-29 01:58:24 (edited)
In this thread I want to address the other problem of the equation I see: rewards. Many of us put a lot of effort into breeding high (role) stat wolves, yet the rewards we get out of it are small compared to the time and dedication it takes. In fact, it's like this huge effort to gain stats is required just to be able to fulfill basic tasks such as getting enough food reliably even in an easy biome (at least during winter) and not losing most battles. I belive this results in many casual players getting frustrated because they don't WANT to have to put in so much effort into an aspect of the game they don't enjoy, while those of us who do in theory enjoy the challenge also end up frustrated because our efforts don't lead us anywhere too exciting. I mean getting a surplus of food in easy biomes after a generation of extensive levelling and collecting daily +1s is nice, and so is... eventually, finally... being able to live comfortably in medium biomes. Definitely! But I mean. It looks like it might take us 2 real life(!) years of careful stat breeding to MAYBE reach a generation that can hunt large trails in Rainforest/Glacier. And then what? I really like the challenge, but in the end for 2 real life years of effort I will only have the satisfaction of (hopefully) finding a large trail. There's no advantage except for increased exp for pursuing them, which will be convenient occasionally I'm sure but nothing that's likely to keep people motivated. (Not to mention it will take even longer to breed wolves who can actually get food out of such hunts.) It's similar with battles. Having a NBW lead is just painful in battles, even at lvl 20. You need so many lucky feet+salves and still can expect to keep losing to low level enemies regularly. Meanwhile if you go after stats and breed and breed, you can still expect to occasionally lose to an enemy far below level 10, but you can win most battles. However, you still will require lucky feet (and salves) frequently, and at some point continued stat gain makes 0 difference. Then you have herbalists, whose stats seem to be completely irrelevant. And scouts who you can send out so rarely they are bad at getting their daily +1s and whose high stats you only really need every 8 years or so/when you change your lead. The rest of the time their stats too are completely irrelevant. So I think it would be cool and in fact a huge motivation for many if high stats were less of a requirement to fulfill basic tasks and instead came with special rewards/special aspects of the game you could pursue. In this post I'm gonna leave open what those rewards should be to get feedback from other players just on my core point. I'd go so far as to say this would be key in increasing and restoring many players' enjoyment of the game. Thank you for reading! <3 |
 🐾Alymiell🐾 #18317 |
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Posted 2022-03-29 08:44:48 (edited)
 But as the game is further developed, we're blessed with more roles for the pack, where we can start asking: what are the stats good for?Let's start from scouts - 101 strength and 101 wisdom to start discovering Rainforest and Glacier, respectively. And that is all about stats for scouting, right? Actually not. Maddie told me that stats actually do matter when scouting which I hadn't seemed to notice before. Stats actually have a decent impact when comparing scouts with no proficiency or easier biomes. However, when it goes to challenging biomes with 100% proficient scouts, I had 102 wisdom Volke who scouted 2.75% of Glacier, 169 wisdom Evira scouting with the same efficiency and finally 343 wisdom Ovoris who actually improved... to scout 3% of the area. I think scouting has the same problem as hunting used to have before Development Update #6 - proficiency has too huge impact over stats. It was adjusted for hunting but not for scouting. Why? Stat affection is so low that most users don't even know stats matter for discovering areas. It has low impact, scouts actually improve in discovering areas due to their proficiency but their stats are not compared by players unlike hunters because discovering areas takes really short part of the gameplay without changing scouts with similar proficiency to compare - for most of the time we have all fully scouted areas and go re-scouting where stats actually don't matter at all unless there's something I don't know. And while stats matter for this short part of the game while discovering biomes although the impact is low, we're struck with a pool in Community Update #32 that asks players if this short part where stats matter could be even shorter by keeping some biomes after the lead retires, followed by Community Update #33 that this idea is put into consideration. This is a small step towards regression. The only remaining part where stats matter for pack wolves is tutoring - to maximize stat boosting for pups, get a tutor with 1.5 times better than pups. I think it's somewhat fine, just sad that the stat efficiency is set in a stepped line and after reaching this 1.5 times better tutor there's no need to get an even better one, which is mostly not an issue if pups are trained by their parents. And that's all about stats rewarding. I think herbalist role has a great potential to be rewarded by stats but all the hopes were ruined in Development Update #12 where foraging time started being dependent on... wisdom? Smarts?  No! Just proficiency and level.  As a player practicing in stat breeding, I can't imagine doing an adjustment to herbalist to be efficient depending on level disregarding stats that still don't matter at all.About lead wolves, I must disagree with Alymiell - I think stats brilliantly affect the battling system. I see a great progress of my lead wolf as the stats increase, I can win battles more frequently and even without using lucky feet while getting more healing salves than using them. We don't need to have ways to win 100% of all battles for free, the winrate is high enough and satisfying to me as an owner of LB wolf. How good our lead is depends on 4 different stats excluding wisdom. The variety of stats is useful against certain enemies, ones being more vulnerable than others. I love how one enemy is easier than the other while the latter is easier than the former with another skill set. The mechanic of a wolf needing various stats for various circumstances is so great I wish this was applied to pack wolves. There's no need to tweak, no need to adjust, no need to change how stats affect the battling system. It looks like developers used to be interested in implementing changes that would make owning wolves with good stats more rewarding, we had Development Update #6 where stats would have more impact on successful hunt for proficient hunters in synergistic hunting party. Development Update #10 provided us with a possibility to train pups who are better trained if their trainer has much better stat that is being trained. Then the interest of improving stat usefulness expired when Development Update #12 was released along with herbalist changes. It seems like either code for stat mechanic has become too complex to make any changes there or our favorite developer who was responsible for the stat mechanic has been no longer with us since then. |
 Dżanek #24018 |
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Posted 2022-03-30 05:39:50
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 BeastOfTheyRoad #52596 |
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Posted 2022-03-30 08:08:01 (edited)
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🐾Alymiell🐾 #18317 |
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Posted 2022-03-31 08:48:46 (edited)
But... yeah. I hate to say it, but stats are... kind of useless? Of course they impact hunting a great deal. But you can get around that by staying in the starter biomes indefinitely and get enough food to feed a large pack even with very low stats. You're only limited by how many hunts you can send out, which is a separate issue, but out of the scope of this post. Prey in the harder biomes is no better than prey in the easier ones (and it's often much worse) so there's not any point in staying there except to idk win the fishing leaderboards more easily because there's less competition. Sure you get more exp with larger trails in harder biomes, but because the pups inherit a fraction of the parent's stats (and it gets worse and worse the higher the stats get), your pack needs to be close to level 20 anyways to even find or catch that prey, so all the extra exp is wasted on already-maxed out wolves. And yes stats matter for mentoring, but that only exists to make... higher stats. Numbers beget numbers with no other real reward. So for the people who don't care, they just don't puptrain, or do it randomly. But the people who do care about stats and want to optimize them, it's stressful and annoying to calculate the minimum stat needed for each and ensure you don't miss a day. Then, if you have the pups at mom and dad's very last litter (when the parents are at the highest stats) they could very well die during mentoring while the pups are growing up. This usually forces me to rip a hunter out of their team to train the pups, then suffer the synergy penalty when I reinstate the wolf back into its old team. Stats matter a little for scouts, since they need 101 wisdom and strength to explore the glacier and rainforest, respectively. However, this isn't really a barrier to entry anymore, since there are so many wolves for sale that meet that criteria. At the time of posting, there were multiple fodder pups with at least 101 strength and wisdom available for 15 sc. Any player can do a quest or catch a few fish and afford that immediately. I have to agree with Dżanek though that stats seem to affect leads and battling in a satisfying way. I barely ever battled with my starter lead because it was just so tedious and painful, and I would get my tail handed to me nearly every time. Then I decided to make a leaderboard run and had to "get gud," so I persisted through battling with another NBW even though I had to buy healing salves and lucky feet constantly, and I still lost a lot. I immediately noticed the difference when I made the G2 from level 20 parents my lead, as he started with 541 stats instead of 200. But once you get to a certain level, there's no reason to keep going (except to get higher on the leaderboard?) because for every 20 or 30 stats you earn, the pups get about one. And that wolf is going to die some day, and all that effort gets erased. I don't want to make the game harder for non-stat breeders. I fully understand that it's not for everyone. I don't think there should be any changes to the starter biomes, or even a few up from there. Heck, I'm even fine with herbalists not being affected by stats to make it easier for new players (although of course I would prefer if they were). But I would love something that made stats more meaningful than bragging rights of being able to live in the harder biomes. In the thread linked above (this one) I suggested that perhaps hunting teams living in harder biomes could get more "bonus stats" per day. This wouldn't really do anything other than maybe make stat breeders happy, because it would just be another self-fulfilling prophesy of numbers for numbers sake, but it would make being able to survive in harder biomes (with a smaller pack, or higher stat hunters) seem more worth it. Perhaps at higher stats hunters could have a chance at bringing back trophy items or recipes from hunting! We already have something similar with herbalists and scouts; I would love if hunters had something special they could find in addition to the carcasses they hunt. Or you could send a group of wolves on a multi-hour-long quest, and their combined stats help determine what reward they bring back, with higher stats leading to a bigger or more rare reward. Or they could bring back stat items - which won't matter or be desirable to non-stat breeders, so they won't miss out. The stat items could raise the cap on one wolf for a day, or ensure at least half of the next level-up points go to a certain stat, or for leads make all the stats gained in the next hour go towards one stat category regardless of enemy. The game already keeps track of exp gained past level 20; you can see that in your pack overview. So I am hopeful that there's something planned for the extra exp and stats after level 20; perhaps something as part of the talent tree that was teased in development update 3? Maybe when clans are introduced, stats could give a bonus in some regard. I have no idea what is planned for clans so I can't speculate about what it would do, just that it would be appreciated. All of these things wouldn't be essential, just something extra that stat breeders could work for. |
 Zea #27549 |
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Posted 2022-04-05 14:18:19
The other sim game I play makes excellent use of breeding for stats. There are many more roles, and 6 stats instead of 5. All roles use 2 stats, and everything is balanced so no one stat is more or less useful. I'm still confused about their usefulness here. I just learned that leads can fight different enemies better with different stats, but other roles seem less effected. For example I could scout rainforest with an NBW when she got there, not even knowing there would be a stat requirement. The other game doesn't have the level 20 cap so it's easier to see how each generation improves. I'm motivated to compete with myself to see how much better they can get. I feel like I have to breed for stats because that's what I'm used to, but it could use a lot of work. |
 🍂 Leonca 🐆 #54339 |
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Posted 2022-04-05 20:57:15
I'm not a stat breeder, but only because there's not enough incentive to do it, they're just numbers that don't affect my gameplay much, despite the fact that I always make sure to train all my pups and adolescents. One idea I've had since I joined Wolvden is the introduction of stat-boosting accessories/decors. The idea is that the stuff you decorate your wolf with, maybe even the background & effects, will give your wolf additional effects. For example, butterflies could increase agility when equipped. A lunar decor on your lead could improve chances of creatures dropping certain items, or double lunar tears collected. There could be items you could equip to your lead that could increase chances of a chased NBW encounter, or to your scouts to increase chances to bring back recipes and such. These items could be found or awarded when a wolf reaches a certain stat or level number. It would be like oldschool RPGs almost. Imagine armored wolves! |
 🎄𝖋𝖔𝖒𝖔𝖗𝖎𝖆𝖓🎄 #51433 |
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Posted 2022-04-09 02:31:14
I don't expect to have the exact idea as mine implemented, just giving a concept as a way to make players not feel so punished when level-ups assign points into stats that serve no purpose. |
Dżanek #24018 |
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Posted 2023-08-21 16:53:30
I think more rewards for higher stats would be good, but nothing where you consistently would need wolves with 2'000+ stats to get them. But higher hunters bringing back trophies sometimes, herbalists bringing back multiple herbs at higher stats, etc would be nice. |
muk #5348 |
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Posted 2023-12-29 18:07:38
- Scouts: -- Every 100 more stats above 500 total (maxing out at 1000) a scout can return one more item from rescouting (not much, but a high-enough stat scout could bring back up to 7 amusement items per scout) -- Every 150 more stats above 500 total (maxing out at 1500) a scout can get a 1 or 2% higher chance for returning with something more valuable, like a recipe, lucky foot, decor, or bg - Herbalists: -- Every 100 more stats above 500 total (maxing out at 1000) a herbalist can forage for 1 more herb -- Every 50 more stats above 200 smarts + wisdom total (maxing out at 1700) a herbalist's time mixing medicine is cut by 1 minute - Pupsitters: -- Every 100 more stats above 300 total (maxing out at 1000) a pupsitter can protect 1 more pup than normal (up to 16 pups at a time) -- Every 200 more stats above 200 total (maxing out at 2000) a pupsitter can increase the total amount of protection by 10% |
kreech #129996 |