Rework The Enclave, It's Inadequate as a pupsink.
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Posted 2022-10-22 12:34:08
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 Slothie #2938 |
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Posted 2022-11-03 21:13:22
Support Times Infinity and beyond! *Shakes pain out of paw* ...Ow... I Am gonna come out and say this Once and Sorry devs but I. HATE. The Enclave Waaay more than i should. I hate even looking at it. I only go to it If i have a quest to doing something with it esp if it's put as a 'hard level' type of quest. I Support everything on this post and all possible ideas to help better improve it. This is indeed supposed to Help us manage Pup numbers and stabilize things Not make it worse. I Esp Love the ideas for Enclave only currency AND our pup sitters helping out mama bear. That'd be so cute and wonderful plus gives our sitters more use then just sitting there and doing lessons If you still have pups and such. <3 |
 Fea #12206 |
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Posted 2023-01-31 09:21:50
I think most of your usability suggestions for the Enclave are great, especially the currency, specialty shop, and adoption toggle. People have already said most of what I have to say on that front, but I will put in another plug for how much I love the toggle. I'm posting because I'm more excited about the potential of your idea to send your wolves to work at the Enclave. The idea for some kind of payment doesn't really appeal though. There are much better motivators to make people want to volunteer their wolves' time to the Enclave than mere currency: Pupsitter EXP gain, Proficiency, and Stat gain. Pupsitters volunteering at the Enclave should: - Prevent Proficiency decay if the pupsitter has no charges assigned; and: - Provide some Proficiency increase, the same way that other roles gain proficiency by going on hunts or scouts; and: - Provide EXP within a range that is comparable to other roles in the game; and: - Provide a possibility of stat gain per 'volunteer time' the same way that Scouts and Hunters have the possibility to gain stats every time they go hunting or scouting. Right now, Pupsitters can gain some amount of EXP and Proficiency each day by being assigned to pups. They get stats when they (eventually lol) level up. Pup training allows a modest gain in both EXP and the (extremely occasional) stat bump. But I feel that the additional EXP/stats provided by puptraining don't even approach making Pupsitting a useful or rewarding role when compared with Hunters or Scouts. I've gotten to the point where I don't bother putting 'good' wolves that I eventually want to breed into the Pupsitting roles. I have pupsitters because I need someone to keep puppies from killing themselves and then to teach the puppies to howl or whatever to get those Sweet, Sweet Stats (for the puppies). But the actual pupsitters themselves? I don't care if they're 100% inbred with 0 markings and Khaki base. Useless role for useless wolves. Why put a valuable wolf into the role when I know that it won't gain a meaningful amount of stats and levels? So, yeah. Your idea could fix the Pupsitter role. And I'm excited for that. And, tbh, I would show up to the Enclave daily with my pack of volunteer teacherwolves for absolutely 0 currency whatsoever if doing so would get me EXP and Stats. Just throwing that out there. No need to add yet another source of currency into the game. |
 Keld #17293 |
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Posted 2023-03-04 11:24:04 (edited)
A year ago the enclave had about 50-60 pages of puppies, now its up to 100-110 pages. within another year, its likely to get near to 200 pages. Its probably going to go up exponentially with new players. The TC is a filthy bloody wreck for selling pups. I dont enclave pups because I put a lot of work into my breeding, markings and stats. I chase SO many of these pups because I cant sell them. I often wonder, why bother playing a breeding game if there is no incentive to breed wolves...especially if they end up just getting chased? It REMOVES the reason to play at all or invest further into the game either with time or money. This needs to get fixed. A lot of enclave pups are picked up and resold in the TC, so they dont even remove the pups, they are just getting cycled over to the TC. Where they get resold again, which drives down the values of wolves that are carefully. So it doesnt even really remove pups at all. It just puts a wholesale price on pups so other players can play the "Maybe it will sell, maybe not" selling game. Enclave creates pup devaluation. This is not a good motivator for breeders. I really like the idea of having an option that removes pups completely, but still gives motivation to breed and play. The gorilla tree was a perfect way to remove excess lion cubs, but their timer on the quest made it a real pain. Especially if people forget to check in that day with the gorilla. It should be reset on roll over, not on a 24 hour timer. But the great thing was, the cubs were removed completely and people got rewards that they could enjoy or sell. The enclave offers multiple pups, which is fantastic, but rewards are seriously lacking. The monetary rewards are almost an insult for anyone with decent pups, so having a shop currency dedicated to the enclave bear would be HUGE, even if its was just for decor. Or even a bar that fills with x number of pups where you get some sort of item when it fills. This is something everyone can aim toward, everyone is on equal footing and only gets better the more people play. WD has seen an increase in player numbers over the last year. More players equals more puppies. An overhaul of how to remove puppies really really really needs to be prioritized, whether its the enclave or some incentive for chasing directly from the den. WD economy is starting to fall apart due to the sheer number of puppies. Why bother playing when pups cant get sold, this is a fundamental part of the game and should be addressed before any more events or mutations or markings are introduced. I can honestly say, as a player, Im seeing serious issues starting to pop up and Ive only been playing consistently for less than a year (Been here since launch though). A little off topic, yet somewhat related to the issue:
So yeah, TOTAL SUPPORT!!!! If i could, I'd mash that support button until it broke. 
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 Mustang 🐎 #3314 |
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Posted 2023-03-04 12:26:13 (edited)
I'm not sure what your point is with this? It's a GOOD thing when puppies are dumped into the enclave. 95% of those puppies never find their way into homes and are voided the next day. That's in theory 1700+ puppies thrown out every night. NOT being dumped into the market. I would bet a few percentages of adopted puppies are made into raise and chase puppies, which are also eventually chased. Yes. The enclave needs to get it's shop. This will raise the floor price of the TC puppies from 24 SC max to a more in demand price, since people will be paying to get exclusive enclave items. But a lot of the points you made just aren't true. 1. The game is not falling apart. Just like any virtual pet game, it takes time to learn maket trends if you actually want to sell your offspring and make currency. Not all pets will be valuable. Most of the puppies in the TC - besides a RARE T3 or special - won't ever sell for more than 50 SC. Making GC takes investment. It's not always as easy as throwing 2 wolves together. 2. There WILL always be a negative stigma against inbreeding and long lineages. I'm not even saying this in a harsh way. It's just how games like these are usually played. Some games don't even allow inbreeding, which might have made the way of thinking more common. Shorter lineage are more valuable because they have less work to track inbreeding, which becomes so much harder with each generation past 5. It also just looks prettier. And it's more of a challenge. That being said, if you're following market trends, higher generation pups can still be valuable. This isn't an issue of the economy. It's just a play style that effects a large percentage of the playerbase, one that needs to be kept in mind if you're looking to make GC. 3. The "breeding for stats" game is stronger than ever. There's a constant grind for leaderboard, and it isn't too hard to get on the leaderboard if you make that your main goal. If you make a clean generation 2 or 3 line with high stats, there is interest. But the biggest money maker is becoming a stud when you get on leaderboard. It was never selling pups. 4. The issue with mutations is a hard one to cover. I personally think mutations are being added into the game too slowly. By the time a new mutation is added, the last ones been out for a year or more and it has been driven into the ground. The introduction of the Gene Hollow also worked to make genetic mutations way more common, as any player can scan wolves until they find a carrier. It used to be way harder to find carriers. That being said, the non carrier mutation market is doing okay. Lethals are always insanely valuable, there's just no way to breed for them. I will give you the point that most of the markings/bases/etc have been applicators up until this point. I definitely think the game needs some more breed only bases/markings/eyes. And not just special marking colors. I also think some inbreeding only mutations could be cool, but this is pretty controversial because some people want clean wolves. I believe when the inbreeding tracker was released they said they wouldn't have inbred exclusive stuff, but I could be wrong here. Lioden gets way more eyes/bases/etc constantly pumped into the game as it's at the end of it's development cycle, and all they can add now are items and bases/etc. Wolvden gets them drizzled in at a much smaller pace. I've voiced before I'd be happy to take zero events for a year if it helped the other aspects of the game be published and finalized. We do have a bunch of half baked features at the moment - including the unfinished enclave - but my point stands is that the enclave IS WORKING. It is not inadequete as a pup sink. There's 2196 pup trades in the TC right now. 336 are T3 so minus those. They're mostly valuable. So 1860. Minus 38 special base trades. 1822. Minus deafness, spont blindness, and piebald. As these are mostly valuable. That's 1738. 735 of those are enclave trades under 25 SC. The rest are various prices. Then compare it to the enclave. 1800 pups a DAY dropped in there. Probably 1500+ dumped into the void. 10 THOUSAND pups removed from the game a week. It isn't perfect. And nothing will slow the reduce of new features. But it's not the enclaves fault that things are overbred for a quick buck then become common until the next trend comes. For the record: I am in support of finishing the enclave to raise the floor price of enclave fodder pups as well as release new items in the game. I just don't think it's going to magically make other things valuable again. |
Slothie #2938 |
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Posted 2023-03-05 06:03:32 (edited)
I didnt say the game was falling apart, I said the pup market is a wreck. Big difference. I know the market trends, pup values and how to buy and sell. I havent gotten where I am at in this game by not knowing trends. I dont buy GC often, only on rare occasions when I can afford it. I utilize the FTP as much as possible, and because I do, I've learned how to make the market work for me. Seeing a sudden sharp decline in pup values is a marker of something going awry, not from lack of knowledge of how to buy and sell. One of those markers is the enclave. I'm not sure what your point is with this? It's a GOOD thing when puppies are dumped into the enclave. 95% of those puppies never find their way into homes and are voided the next day. That's in theory 1700+ puppies thrown out every night. NOT being dumped into the market. I would bet a few percentages of adopted puppies are made into raise and chase puppies, which are also eventually chased. Yes, it is a GOOOOOOD THING!!!! But it needs to be MORE and thats why I support this suggestion 100%. Now, as far as your numbers, let me point out 95% do not get erased from my recent calculations. What I'm seeing is more along the lines of 75%-85% getting erased. At roll over there is an average of 110 pages of puppies lately. That is 18 pups per page x 110 pages = 1980 pups...at rollover on average. Over the course of the day, several puppies are picked up and those numbers go down to about 85 pages. Going by those numbers, that means roughly 450 puppies were picked up over 24 hours and sent back into the population. Thats 18 puppies per page x 85 remaining pages = 1530 erased. So, 1980 -1530 = 450 which is 22.72% of the original 1980 puppies. That is 22.72% of enclave puppies returning to the market/game per day. Thats nearly a quarter. Your estimate is that 95% when its more like 77.28% are erased. Thats 3150 puppies remaining in the game per week. And these numbers only go up as more players join. So after 2 years, the enclave NEEDS an overhaul. If you have access to actual numbers though, please post them so we can see. Ideally, 95% would be much better. While many of the puppies that are erased are potatoes, the more valuable ones get rolled back onto the market, devaluing the ones people work hard to breed and train for the purpose of selling. If someone can get an enclave pup for 20sc, why buy a comparable pup on the TC for 200sc? As a breeder, why should I put in effort and time to the game if my efforts, time, planning and money gets no return? There is no return on the investment when this occurs. 3. The "breeding for stats" game is stronger than ever. There's a constant grind for leaderboard, and it isn't too hard to get on the leaderboard if you make that your main goal. If you make a clean generation 2 or 3 line with high stats, there is interest. But the biggest money maker is becoming a stud when you get on leaderboard. It was never selling pups. Stating the stats game is as strong as ever is hard to swallow when there are few wolves making it above 2500 well into 2 years of the game release. If its as strong as ever, we would be seeing many more wolves reaching 5k or better on the leader board, but we dont. Of the 10 studs listed on the leader board this morning, the highest generation is 9th. Only one stud is a 1st gen, four are 2nd gen and four are 5th gen. So stats going strong? No, not really. A small percentage of players are dedicated enough to grind stats like a full time job to reach leaderboard but are they getting a return? I'd sure like to find out. There are several thousand players using this site and only 10 are above 1800, 4 of which are above 2000. I asked Mavrik (4K stud) if they would do it again and they said no, the return was less than the effort and investment. If stats were going strong, we would be seeing longer generations and exponential growth of stats over the last two years since the game release. Instead, we are seeing wolves under 9 generations power grinding stats that barely break 2500, and thats over 2 years of gameplay. Two years. Its stagnant. Until we see consistent generational growth of stats, stats is not going strong. Growth does not burn out at 2700 stats and restart from NBW 250. Growth is successive generations building stats. And its the "Ew long gen" group that is driving low gen, under 2k stat stagnant studs because "I wont stud to anything under 1k stats and 2 gen!" This attitude is killing stats and killing the puppy market too. But the biggest money maker is becoming a stud when you get on leaderboard. It was never selling pups If selling decent puppies is not the goal on a breeding site, there is no function to breeding then. If its all about stats and reaching the leader board, there is no reason to have marks or bases or breeding or studding at all. It basically becomes a grinding stats game. Get an NBW, grind to top of board, rinse and repeat. Selling stud slots because someone is on the leaderboard might be a bonus, but breeding is the point. A large number of players breed puppies to SELL or take over our dens so we can breed puppies to SELL, we breed for rare marks and bases to SELL, this funds our creation of new studs, purchase of new breeding stock and items we like to decorate our wolves with. Events also help give apps to make our wolves pretty; breed only bases obtained through combo or NBW exclusives, all these things assist and help drive income. Becoming a leader board stud is not the biggest money maker. I can attest to my own experience with that. Either on Lioden or on WD. While its advantageous, it is not the only model to rely on for long term investment. Then compare it to the enclave. 1800 pups a DAY dropped in there. Probably 1500+ dumped into the void. 10 THOUSAND pups removed from the game a week. It isn't perfect. And nothing will slow the reduce of new features. But it's not the enclaves fault that things are overbred for a quick buck then become common until the next trend comes. I think you are missing the point Im making about the whole issue. Im not placing blame 100% on the back of the enclave, Im stating the enclave is not helping, especially in its current state and it NEEDS to be changed. WD needs to stop sidelining it and fix it. And on that we both appear to agree whole heartedly. You and I both know that the number of puppies washed out of the enclave is nothing compared to what being born. The criteria for the enclave makes it less effective as a sink and the fact that 22% per day of those puppies dont get erased aggravates an already difficult situation for breeders and sellers. |
Mustang 🐎 #3314 |
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Posted 2023-03-05 11:57:00 (edited)
I've made 11k gc worth selling pups and I have seen a slight decline in my spreadsheets recently, but only because our most recent high fads (piebalds) are starting to die out again. I'm all for putting things in the markertespecially harder breed only things. But it's just going to constantly cycle. I'm for support of the enclave shop. But honestly I don't feel like having a discussing because you super editted your first post and removed things so I'm out. Not sure what the point of that was. 🤷 |
Slothie #2938 |
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Posted 2023-03-06 10:10:57
Because I'm stuck to breeding those till my breeding male ages out. On lioden there is actually a market for new players to breed moderately because the gorilla keeps asking for dun based cubs, here it's just not the same. I also set him during a time he would of had been way more valuable hadn't I left on a large hiatus really. Otherwise I really do like the idea for the special shop and for gaining exp and stats with pupsitters there! |
 Datrandomcat #11515 |
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Posted 2023-11-22 01:24:40
Look forward to reading everyone else's thoughts soon! |
 Katie #28191 |
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Posted 2023-11-22 20:25:10
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 cr0wfeathers #14965 |