Karma proposal (with diagrams!)

Karma proposal (with diagrams!)
Posted 2024-07-01 17:34:27 #1224642 Hello, Wolvden! Thanks for all your hard work on this game! I understand that a system based on Lioden's karma is in the pipeline. I think that's really exciting! However, players (including myself) hold concerns about condemning the behaviors of non-human animals as "good" or "evil" using a term like "Karma." I am excited for a choice-based consequence system to be implemented into this game! Rather than it be presented as good and evil, I suggest it be presented as simply your lead's nature or temperament, similarly to hunting parties. Wolves in hunting parties are sorted into two "categories" of personality: the "bad-tempered" (stoic/aggressive) and the "good-natured" (friendly/romantic). Please note that the naming of these categories isn't necessarily a judgement, or condemning one over the other; rather, these categories of personalities tend to be more or less inclined towards behaviors which generally appeal to human stereotypes of "good" or "bad." Personalities which are friendly and romantic fit human ideas of being "good-natured" or "nice." Meanwhile, personalities which are stoic or aggressive tend to more closely match human ideas of being "bad-tempered" or "mean." Wolves don't think of these behaviors as "good" or "evil", they just have different natures/temperments/personalities. Wolves with similar personalities tend to get along and want to spend time with each other. Differences in personalities, however, can cause conflict. Rather than being presented as "good" or "evil," explore actions can instead correspond to these categories of personalities. Many of Wolvden's explore encounters seem to imply the existence of something on the backend which assigns actions to two (or three) categories, roughly corresponding with Lioden's "good" and "evil" (and sometimes "neutral"). I would like to work with this by rewarding players for playing according to their lead's personality as it sorts into those two categories used by hunting. I have made a diagram: (The "middle" area between the barriers roughly corresponds to "neutral". Also, this is not necessarily to scale.) How are these rewards received? Either an additional, new merchant, or more organically, explore encounters! Maybe being past these barriers causes some explore encounters to drop new or different items, recipes, etc. I believe that rather than frustrating players, this allows opportunities for trading and item collecting. I also believe it will help make playing leads with different personalities feel different than each other, because different items will drop. Thank you so much for reading!	Everstray #41125

Posted 2024-07-01 17:34:27

#1224642

Hello, Wolvden! Thanks for all your hard work on this game!

I understand that a system based on Lioden's karma is in the pipeline. I think that's really exciting! However, players (including myself) hold concerns about condemning the behaviors of non-human animals as "good" or "evil" using a term like "Karma."

I am excited for a choice-based consequence system to be implemented into this game! Rather than it be presented as good and evil, I suggest it be presented as simply your lead's nature or temperament, similarly to hunting parties. Wolves in hunting parties are sorted into two "categories" of personality: the "bad-tempered" (stoic/aggressive) and the "good-natured" (friendly/romantic). Please note that the naming of these categories isn't necessarily a judgement, or condemning one over the other; rather, these categories of personalities tend to be more or less inclined towards behaviors which generally appeal to human stereotypes of "good" or "bad."

Personalities which are friendly and romantic fit human ideas of being "good-natured" or "nice." Meanwhile, personalities which are stoic or aggressive tend to more closely match human ideas of being "bad-tempered" or "mean." Wolves don't think of these behaviors as "good" or "evil", they just have different natures/temperments/personalities. Wolves with similar personalities tend to get along and want to spend time with each other. Differences in personalities, however, can cause conflict.

Rather than being presented as "good" or "evil," explore actions can instead correspond to these categories of personalities.

Many of Wolvden's explore encounters seem to imply the existence of something on the backend which assigns actions to two (or three) categories, roughly corresponding with Lioden's "good" and "evil" (and sometimes "neutral"). I would like to work with this by rewarding players for playing according to their lead's personality as it sorts into those two categories used by hunting.

I have made a diagram:

(The "middle" area between the barriers roughly corresponds to "neutral". Also, this is not necessarily to scale.)

How are these rewards received? Either an additional, new merchant, or more organically, explore encounters! Maybe being past these barriers causes some explore encounters to drop new or different items, recipes, etc. I believe that rather than frustrating players, this allows opportunities for trading and item collecting. I also believe it will help make playing leads with different personalities feel different than each other, because different items will drop.

Thank you so much for reading!

Everstray
#41125

Posted 2024-07-03 17:43:21

#1225660

I have been hesitant about the karma system being added at all, but this is a really interesting and well-thought-out idea. Well done.

I also really don't like the idea of having "good" and "evil" labels. Due to this and the differences between each personality group (a stoic approach would look much different than an aggressive one, for example -- therefore presumably their decor/poses/etc would also be just as unique), I would enjoy if the scale was more of a plus sign shape, with all four personality groups having their own barrier and rewards rather than grouping "good" and "bad" personalities together, but that may be getting into "way overcomplicated" territory, so I digress.

River
#41783

Posted 2024-07-04 09:58:01

#1225929

No karma please. I hated the system on Lioden and I don't want it here. I don't want to have to worry about the choices that I'm making in explore. I don't want to have to think, is this going to affect me negatively or positively or trying to figure out which one will keep me of neutral. I just want to go out and have fun. I don't think Karma needs to be involved.
And my own personal opinion I think the current Wolvden personality system needs a complete overhual. But another topic for another time.

KalikaRoo31
#2874

Posted 2024-07-04 12:26:03

#1225999

This is really well thought out so definitely kudos to you, but even so it sounds like more work and less fun imo. I don't want to have to worry about constantly making mistakes in explore!

✨ Ninsun 🎁
#127528

Posted 2024-07-28 03:16:26 (edited)

#1237904

I'm not a fan of karma systems tied to ideas of morality. Instead I'd much rather a karma system be based on true wildness vs habituation to people, since we now have humans in the mix (which I personally hate but w/e) and can be tied to specific tiers of encounters.

Ex "bad" is habituation - engage in lots of human related encounters a certain way and your wolf and its pack will become progressively more familiar and less scared of people, opening up more and more encounters that will give connected kinds of rewards.

Lean the other way to true wildness, however, and you will see less human related encounters and more unique ones that you would not see otherwise. Things only fully untouched wilderness can provide.

This would create a sliding scale not of black/white morality, but let the player kind of shape just how "remote" or "close to civilization" their pack may be, and thus have those rewards tied to those decisions (even that's not perfect but honestly, I'm sick and tired of finding cow carcasses while I'm out in the MOUNTAINS, so I'd take this before a evil/good slidey scale).

otterbells
#4284

Posted 2024-08-02 15:19:13

#1240455

Support. Sounds good.

🍂 Leonca 🐆
#54339

Posted 2024-08-06 05:58:17

#1242673

@otterbells #4284
I'm still heavily opposed to the system as a whole but if presented in this way I think I might be slightly less opposed. (side note I really hate the human encounters too)

KalikaRoo31
#2874

Posted 2024-08-06 08:07:41

#1242702

No support, sorry.
I am sick of having to track my karma and other shit on Lioden, I do NOT want to see that here, no matter in what form. I just want to relax with my wolves and not deal with possible karma outcomes of exploration choices.

Khajiit
#2754

Posted 2024-08-06 08:12:16

#1242704

Beyond the issue of assigning moral choices to wild animals - which I understand not everyone vibes with -, the idea of having things locked behind choices all year round sounds exhausting to me.
In Lioden it is easier to work around, since we are allowed two accounts per person, but here we only have the one. Isn't it enough to have a pseudo karma system with the Cataclysm event? People are free to pick one of the three available sides based on the things they want from shop or just to roleplay, but as far as I've seen it has no major impact on your playstile, and I prefer it that way.

Berenos
#2759

Posted 2024-08-06 10:37:17

#1242759

@Berenos I 100% agree with this

I frankly do not want a karma system at all - especially if it uses terms like "good" and "evil".

If it were to be implemented however, I would find a faction system to be more preferable. Maybe have one NPC/pack who values kindness, and another who values survival at all costs.

It would still be very... eh, for me and I'd prefer a karma system not be implemented at all. But this way it would feel more like natural consequences to one's actions, as opposed to trying to force a label based upon human morality on me.

Proxy Loves Mojaves
#86672

Karma proposal (with diagrams!)

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