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SALIGIA CANNOT BE A DATABLE WOLF | TW: Abusive and Toxic relationship/behavior

Posted 2024-11-28 10:14:48
I was simply refuting statements you guys said, as this is a discussion thread and that's how discussing works. At no point did I say you guys weren't allowed to express your opinion or that you were even wrong to oppose at all.

Whirligig (Hiatus)
#11137

Posted 2024-11-29 05:14:44 (edited)
I disagree with the idea that not introducing Saligia as a datable wolf or changing her character. It'd be interesting to meet her during The Matchmaking as we remember from the Halloween event, without toning down her manipulative traits. Or it'd be fun to introduce a wolf that sounds so sweet when neutral then the date starts sounding unsettling when in positive relationship making the player consider going U-turn into the negative.

One of reasons why has already been mentioned: this is not a game for kids. All arguments supporting the thread's idea with a reason that it's a 16+ game not 18+ or that there are minors are based on how to make the game suitable for all ages, not specifically for 16+ players: a safe place, spreading safe information, not impacting the real life and real life relationships, silly holiday dating sim, where villains craving power shouldn't be romanticized. And no abusive or toxic relationships either, even though based on flavor text alone we seem to have this with Vernon and maybe Faelcu (has that one that can be considered a threat).

It's been said that Matchmaker dates are designed to encourage you to tolerate the NPC no matter how they treat you. If you can date somewolf, trust somewolf, why would they be bad? But an option to minimize the relationship into hate is as viable as maximizing into love - the player has this choice for every datable NPC. Moreover, there is an achievement to reach -30 affection with an NPC so players are encouraged not to maximize everywolf they date. This quite indicates that there can be bad dates. Unlike in the Halloween storyline, during The Matchmaker dating it's never too late (well, as long as the event doesn't end) to react appropriately once you discover how bad Saligia is.

The problem you brought up trying to reason that abusive and toxic relationship should never be romanticized - I find it to reason the opposite, that it's recommended to be romanticized in the game. It's said that real people are trapped in real abusive and/or toxic relationships that they would never have wanted to get into if they knew in advance, minors and young adults frequently struggle to identify when stuck in a toxic situation. By not introducing such abusive or toxic relationship into the game, we make the victims persist in this lack of knowledge, in this struggle to identify. Wolvden players that don't learn from the game about such kind of relationship will be less prepared in a serious one, more curious about this unknown to them type of romance, harder to get out of it, being stuck for a longer time. There needs to be a lot of such type of a relationship in 16+ games to make players more aware of it. Dating somewolf to be trashtalked on a higher affection may affect some players to avoid or break up a toxic relationship IRL. Nevertheless, there will be some players who after experiencing it in the game would fall victim of a real toxic/abusive relationship but it either comes regardless of the experience or at least are into this type of thing, which is better than romanticizing unknowingly. By romanticizing a relationship like this, we don't dismiss the danger and awful lives that are truly on the front of the line of this kind of thing, we raise the awareness of such relationship existing. If abusive and toxic relationships in dating sims were 18+ only, how would you warn the minor players about these - by telling them to play the adult content?

Even though I consider The Matchmaker being the worst Wolvden event I have played in this game, there is one aspect I admire the most: the NPCs for giving strong impressions to players, both positive and negative. About Saligia - some players might love her in the game, some players may want her removed from the event - she really suits there.

TL;DR: Introducing Saligia to The Matchmaker event is great. Showing abusive and toxic relationships in the game will help players recognize and avoid them IRL.

Dżanek
#24018

Posted 2024-11-30 05:33:11
Wow, I didn't expect this to get this much attention while I was gone, but I guess I was out for almost a week.

A couple of people have mentioned the Faeclu datable, so I figured I'd address it.
Personally, I believe these two are two separate cases. To begin with, the Faeclu Datable is not confirmed to be the two we meet in the storyline; Radha and Ailbhe. From the small amounts of lore we get and from the design choices between the Coligreach Event Faeclu and the Match Maker Event Faeclu, I believe they're intended to be separate characters. It makes little sense to include only one of the two Faeclu we met if they intended to have Ailbhe and/or Radha as the datable. They're insinuated to be a pair, they do everything together.

Additionally, the design of the Faeclu vary pretty noticably between events. Comparing Wolf: Faeclu to Company of Faeclu [Hostile] and [Calm], the Datable doesnt appear to glow across their body like the Company Faeclu do. They also have a notably bluer (turquoise-er?) underbelly.
When comparing images in the storyline to images used we see that both Faeclu from Coligreach have facial markings, brownish underbellies, off-white teeth and red tounges, and wear quite a bit of golden bangles. All of which, the Faeclu from Matchmaker lacks, with the only adjacent being the silver lines we see exclusively in their expressions.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Lorcan mentions remember the player character and makes mentions back to the Coligreach event. Faeclu does not make a mention about knowing the player character and never mentions any part of the Coligreach event. Even after their facade drops

If the Faeclu datable is intended to be Ailbhe or Radha, I personally think it should be retconned to be a separate Faeclu.
Personally, I would say a character based off of changelings poses less of a risk than a character based off a cult leader, which nearly all of Wolvden acknowledged that the witches were a part of a cult. But I can understand the risk making Ailbhe and/or Radha a datable.


I have to admit, I'm a bit disheartened in people's opinions of this post. I do think that for her purpose, Saligia is written well. Maybe not a good writing, but she certainly does what is intended for her; a big bad, manipulating those around her and being a proper villain. But just because she's a fictional character doesn't mean she should be romanced.

While I still don't think she should be added to the pool. If she is added, I believe A) she should be from a point in time well before the Halloween storyline, before she has her cult, possibly even before she has her magic and B) there should be some obvious draw back of dating her, maybe she demands twice the gifts or she doesn't have a liked biome/gift. IF she becomes a datable, there needs to be an obvious line to explain to the inexperienced or confused players that she is a bad "person" and you shouldn't date someone like her and she should be restricted by the player's age.
But I still believe not adding Saligia to the dating pool is the safest option for wolvden's audience. I believe in all cases, romanticizing abusive or toxic characters or people is a genuine problem. Take for example: Individuals claiming a killer is "too cute" for jail.

Hollow Howls
#12130

Posted 2024-11-30 05:47:49
support. i didn't do her storyline, so i didn't experience at lot of her however i'm playing a game; why do i want to potentially be matched to somewolf who is toxic? like you said, this game is a safespace. i don't want to hate/not play an event because i could be matched with a toxic character. i don't think either kora or saligia should be added to matchmaker, both were toxic in their own way.

🎄✨ scyl
#68894

Posted 2024-11-30 05:56:30
I am also supporting this idea and will disagree with a stance that showing an abusive relationship is somehow "educational". There are wonderful materials out there which are aimed at teaching us how to avoid abusive partners (Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men is one of them, contrary to title helping not just in straight relationships where the men is abusive). There are also professionals providing resources either privately via dedicated therapy or via channels (such as ndvhofficial profile or Jasmin Schult's podcast).

As both a victim of abusive relationships and a person with psychological background - browser games are not a source of such knowledge, as with all due respect to the writers they lack the psychological and educational background to do it the correct way and the users will also be going into the event without the proper stance of "this is a learning time" and not "this is a fun time for my afterwork/school hours". I am not gonna be profiling Saligia ofc, but she still showed a big lack of empathy, giving and pulling patterns, promising great things just to make sure the player will be trapped in her intrigue with a vision of wonderful future and the feeling that they are special. This is not someone who should be a part of a casual, mini-dating event, but as a villain she definitely suited her purpose and was a great part, if not he best character, of the Halloween event

Adelova
#140939

Posted 2024-11-30 07:19:45
I oppose this.

I usually don't engage in discussions in any browser game, but this one is just plain pointless, and since I opposed it I might as well add to the reasons.
As it was mentioned multiple times already: where was it said what kind of relationship our character was in with Saligia during October event? I never once got any inclination that Saligia is in any way romanticised as a character (it clearly is shown as the opposite, you ARE supposed to feel bad if you finish her route), and, from what I understand about the Matchmaker event, there's not even much room to romantacise anything? From what I'm getting, having an NPC is just a visual treat for the player who enjoyed said NPC and their design. Looking at it from the poll's perspective, I understand we could either get only one cool character or all the characters, and I'm glad none was left behind in the end. It just gives the community more variety to play with, as it is THE PLAYER'S choice who to date.
I've been here for a couple of events already, and never have I seen any story connections between them. I assume this means the events are treated seperately as to not confuse any newcomers or people who decided to skip a month. I think we should keep in mind that the October storyline was for the October event, and will stay as a thrilling halloween horror-ish story. I highly doubt the devs would in any way purposefully harm their community by romantacising abuse and manipulation hidden in a dating sim minigame. If we were to treat EVERY event the same way, then the agument about dateable Faelcu is also invalid regardless whether they're the same Faelcu or not, since, as creatures in general, they were heavily implied to be mischevious and not well-meaning towards wolves. Lorewise as it stands they have all the more reason to be evil manipulators, and yet they're not. Why? Because Matchmaker isn't about deep, convoluting storylines, we have different events for that.
It really isn't that deep, it's just more options for a silly dating event for people who enjoyed Saligia as a character. I've seen this kind of discussions happen way too many times in terms of fictional villains with the "protect the kids" argument, and I really don't think Wolvden will bring about the end of the world if someone gets to date the cool bad witch. The truly manipulative and outright evil content that can mess with young people IS out there, but definitely not in any content provided and approved by Wolvden devs.
NyanKot
#141333

Posted 2024-11-30 07:36:38
Thankyou NyanKot, that's exactly the point I was trying to make before but those supporting this thread didn't seem to grasp what I had meant
Miyuki gives Gifts 🎁
#130067

Posted 2024-11-30 08:10:19
I would like to clarify upon reading NyanKot's reply.

I, personally, am not claiming that the storyline for October is Romanticizing Saligia. There is not hint of a romantic relationship between the player character and Saligia through that event. She very clearly treats the player as a tool and the player is either convinced their special or convinced Saligia is bad.
The Romanticizing part would come from the addition of Saligia to the dating pool. As with the few characters added from other storylines, they appear to be "up to date" with their background. For example: Lorcan 'remembers' the entire November and will make comments about it. Depending on what the Wolvden team decides is "cannon", she will more than likely be posed after pretty much obliterating the world or after being banished and promising revenge. Both options leave her as a "threat" or someone you'd not want to date.

Additionally, I don't intend to claim that the Wolvden staff intentionally causes harm to their audience. However, I have seen a significant lack of action in their part and would argue that they tend to lack in terms of safety. (I've seen bulling and teaming up on users run rapid while the staff claims there's nothing wrong) The team doesn't intend harm, but there are situations where harm is caused. And there are Do's and Don'ts when you run a public game with an audience of minors.

I don't intend to claim that some kid will date Saligia and just jump into a toxic relationship. I am claiming that telling an inexperienced individual that dating this person is good by rewarding them might send the wrong signals and skew them into doing things for perceived reward.
There's a lot of arguments about how you can chose who to date. And yes, you are technically correct. However, between the massive amounts of currency one gets with gifting and dating and the exclusive decor, it is incredibly uncommon to see anyone actively avoid a datable. Why? Well because you're being rewarded. Those rewards also translate pretty well to in game currency, so why wouldn't you?

I'm not arguing that Saligia is bad or that she's inherently 18+, I'm arguing that she would not be a good partner example for the extremely vulnerable community that Wolvden attracts.
The major stumper on this is that Saligia leads a cult, which can be directly related to real life in which. Like the game, cults trick unsuspecting individuals, manipulate them, isolate them, and in an uncomfortable amount of occurrences, cause severe harm to their members. Saligia directly follows the cult leader stereotype.

Hollow Howls
#12130

Posted 2024-11-30 14:19:44
I understand Saligia leads a cult, there is lots of games and possibly real life where cults exist, but matchmaker isn't about her cult at all and you have the option to kill Saligia in the October story. Guess she'll either be bought back through necromancy or it's before her cult exsits. Meaning before she's a villain. Perhaps all options should be considered. Again it's too soon to judge.
Dragon Desire
#26750

Posted 2024-11-30 19:19:52
I'd like to agree to disagree and here's why: TLDR - this is a game. it is fiction. no one should be taking relationship advice from pixels.

This is first and foremost: a game. It is fiction. There are way more accessible displays of romanticising toxic relationships than a game about wolves (tv, movies, other video games with human characters). If the 16-year-olds that play the game with sparkly neon blue wolves believe that the witch WOLF from Halloween would make a good partner then that's a different conversation to be had.... we have personalities for the wolves that we see daily that can be pair-bonded to our wolves that are just as similar to some of Saligia's actions during Halloween. There are a lot of current NPCs that could be considered "toxic": Brad and Chad both start off with innuendos and appear to be heavily sexually suggestive, Cian starts off with an immediate conversation about food which could be triggering/toxic for users with EDs, there are plenty of other arrogant/suggestive/conceited personalities within the event that could be considered toxic, should all of them be removed also?

As this event technically comes before the Halloween since it's in February I would assume that the devs would create the persona of Saligia before she became culty and if not, with the feedback here perhaps they will. I don't think it's fair to write off a FICTIONAL character after one experience with her. Saligia didn't lie about your lead being "special", they clearly ended up with some sort of magic to be able to corrupt/heal things. I played the event for the items so I sided with Kora and IMO Kora wanting to kill Saligia was worse than Saligia's action.

Obviously, toxic, manipulative, abusive relationships are not okay and WD is not a place where we should be educating others about relationship dynamics. At the end of the day this is literally a fictional game about breeding wolves and creating a pack, it should not be that deep.

--
I am also really sorry to anyone who has had experience in toxic/abusive relationships and I hope that you're out of them now. I also understand that we won't all share the same opinion and at the end of the day it's up to the devs to decide whats best for the game.

°✧ Acari ✧°
#2606

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