SALIGIA CANNOT BE A DATABLE WOLF | TW: Abusive and Toxic relationship/behavior
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Posted 2024-12-04 11:40:12 (edited)
I personally don't really want to have to deal with characters that feel manipulative or otherwise toxic during THIS event as its about love. I tolerate characters like Willa and Brad even though they make me uncomfortable but that's just me and my personal feelings, but to bring in a character that could be manipulative to anyone and not just give an icky feeling to a select few would be a design flaw. And I seriously don't want to hear the same excuse I have seen thrown at those who don't want Saligia to this event. I LOVE SALIGIA FOR THE ROLE SHE WAS DESIGNED FOR! The issue ONLY arose around her being included in an event that is more intimate and vulnerable than her original story, which I don't think she is cut out for. Now honestly if I were to see her in say the Cataclysms event I would be pleasantly surprised because that much more fits her character "Oh there she goes spreading chaos, she's doing her thing." Gosh ok I've spewed on enough, I just wanted there to be a complete understanding on BOTH sides of this discussion. |
 ⚔️Ren⚔️ [Light's on] #87527 |
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Posted 2024-12-04 12:54:49
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Posted 2024-12-05 18:09:32 (edited)
You can say "just don't date her if you don't like her" if you want, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are people that would be made uncomfortable just seeing Saligia appear on their dating roster, or even knowing that Saligia is a potential dateable you could come across, after knowing what she was like in the actual Halloween storyline. As for Lorcan and the Faelcu dateable, since they were mentioned in some conversations here... Warning for Coigreach Storyline Spoilers! And for the Faelcu...the Faelcu definitely sees the players more like toys than anything. Not sure what'd you expect out of the Wolvden's version of the Fae. But, the Faelcu are not inherently malicious (even despite the dateable Faelcu's personality being "Malicious"). They're ultimately nasty tricksters that get bored, and think mortals happen to be pretty amusing. They're not completely out for blood and destruction. Hell, in the "Splitting Up" path, Ailbhe threatens to kill Quany if he doesn't stop being so snarky, only for Quany to call Ailbhe out, saying they're bluffing. Yet we know that the Faelcu is very well capable of killing if they wanted to do so. If the Faelcu really wanted destruction, they'd just do so. So ultimately, they're just immortal tricksters who are bored and don't really care for mortal morals. And they are also manipulative because they're bored, and it's not the "trick you into thinking we're not gonna harm you" kind of manipulative either. It's kind of like...brute force manipulation, if that's a thing? As in like, they manipulate you by directly exerting their powers and threatening what you love, to make you do what they want. I also have my own personal theory that the Faelcu we see in Matchmaker is a much younger one, due to having a much smoother, less toned, and almost less eldritch appearance than any other Faelcu we see. But that's besides the point. Saligia, on the otherhand, doesn't get any kind of pass. She is manipulative, and in the kind of way where she attempts to fool the player into thinking she's the good guy and wants to fix what's wrong with the world, when in reality, she wants to make it worse, and the player happens to be strong enough to make that happen. She tries to make the player feel special and important, and pulls the classic "everyone who tells you I'm bad is just a jealous liar" move when an outsider tells you something's wrong. And that kind of manipulative is bound to trigger players far more, as it hurts a lot more to be hurt by someone who you thought you could trust, than it is to be hurt by someone you know from the start that you cannot trust. We all knew that the Faelcu is not to be trusted, by the time we interact with them during Coigreach. Not all players, going in completely blind, would know that Saligia isn't to be trusted, until it becomes evident (either when Kora tells you so or Saligia makes you corrupt creatures). And she isn't simply bored like the Faelcu is. She is downright malicious and destructive, and apparently is not above beating the player into submission if you don't help her fuck up the world. I wouldn't be surprised if she would actually kill the player, had the player not have the ultimate armor of being the player. She wants to harm the world and the player, while the Faelcu ultimately just wants to be entertained by mortals and their funny behaviors. And she's a wolf like the player, so she doesn't really get the "immortal that you can't really apply mortal morals to" excuse either. Also- I'm not trying to justify the Faelcu either and I apologize if it seems that way- They're major assholes and I have many remarks about wanting to throw hands with them. Hell, in my pack's lore, they have 3 Faelcu in the prison, because those little shits pissed my pack off (how did my wolves pull that off? Well, they're also magical, I guess). But I am trying to point out that Saligia and the Faelcu aren't nearly as comparable as some could think. And the introduction of the Faelcu dateable was probably more for the...monster enjoyers, rather than because players actually like the Faelcu, as they are. Now if she were to become a dateable, I do imagine she'd be toned down a lot more, and her manipulation probably wouldn't be prevalent. But for the sake of the comfortability of players who are more sensitive to the kind of manipulative that Saligia is, and the younger, more impressionable players (16 year olds are still very impressionable!), it may be better to simply not have Saligia be a dateable. Even if you're not actually getting into a relationship with any of the wolves you date, even if she is heavily toned down, sometimes it is better to just...not. For the sake of the people that have the trauma. And it's a little sad to see a few people be like "this suggestion is pointless" and "it's just fiction" and "just don't date her if you don't like her", when the topic at hand can be harmful to people's mental health. I think a better compromise would be to have one or two of the other coven witches appear as dateables. Or more wildly, give the players a chance to design a unique coven witch that only appears during Matchmaker! Or maybe like, a canonical child of Saligia, who may look a little similar to her, yet isn't all manipulative like her? Maybe he/she/they could even be rebellious and entirely against their mother's actions? Could be interesting for lore. Apologies if none of this actually makes much sense to the conversation, I tend to ramble a lot and wanted to share some of my thoughts. |
🌌⭐Lilith🌃🌙 #98063 |
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Posted 2024-12-06 06:56:11
I personally support the idea of swapping Saligia for a couple of cult members as it puts Wolvden's writers in a much better position. Background characters don't have to share Saligia's characteristics. They could be uninformed like the player was, a reluctant follower, or simply not close enough to the center of the cult to understand. Plenty of space to write characters you'd date. I still stand by my previous statements for if Saligia is added. She's, unfortunate at this point, an exposed trigger and a horrible example for a partner. Both of which are against Wolvden's best interest, whether they acknowledge it or not. But I'll still say, she cannot be added as a datable as is. |
 Hollow Howls #12130 |
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Posted 2024-12-06 08:57:12
I think that would be an incredible idea if the writers and devs like it, Cataclysms actually seems like a very fitting event for a character like Saligia and I would actually be very pleased to see her in that atmosphere. And if people really only want Saligia in Matchmaker for decor purposes then maybe she could be added to the Merged shop or something, I totally get wanting really cool companion decors especiallyif their event npcs. Let me even build upon the idea that witches potentially meddling with cryptids during Cataclysms would be a fun way to tie in the events together, whether it's Saligia or not. Their wish is to twist or heal the world based on their goals, and with some of the encounters in Cataclysms that could very easily be a interesting crossover between events. They could be making the situation worse by working together with a merged Cryptid, help heal and restore broken things with the kinfolk, or just in general do their own chaotic thing. Which that last bit could be a stretch, but I want wanted to stress there are other events a character such as Saligia can be included in without being a risk for mental health issues while still have her be fun and true to her character! I also think that other witches that may have been in the background or in a similar position to the player would be a fun substitute for Saligia in the Matchmaker event. For example having a good natured witch who loves plants, even one who's more trickster/evil would be fine as long as they are written with care or similarly to the Faelcu dateable! |
⚔️Ren⚔️ [Light's on] #87527 |
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Posted 2024-12-06 21:37:31
Safest bet on the developer's side would probably be just to use a reformed background character from the coven, for the least amount of drama. |
 🍂 Leonca 🐆 #54339 |
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Posted 2024-12-08 00:43:50 (edited)
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🕯️ Festive Faelcu ❄️ #27089 |
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Posted 2024-12-08 09:54:03
It may just be a pixel wolf game, but this is still people's mental health we're talking about. And when it comes to the mental health of real people, we do have to be a lot more careful. Or at least, we should be a lot more careful. There are quite a few toxic NPCs in Matchmaker already, sure. There are a few with attitudes or speak of things that could be triggering to some. Saligia is more than just toxic, however. And is far likely to greatly trigger more than people than the likes of Brad. Also Acari said that they believed that Kora wanting to kill Saligia was worse than whatever Saligia did to the player at any point...keep in mind that Kora probably wanted revenge, and wanted it all to end FOR GOOD. A cult needs a leader, who "guides" the followers, and if you get rid of the leader, it's very likely the cult will weaken and maybe even break apart. And this cult in particular want to damage to even destroy the world of Wolvden. Not to mention, Saligia went and corrupted Kora, just because Kora wouldn't bend to her will, and judging from the Corrupted Kora decor, there is some path where the witches corrupt Kora entirely, making her lose all sense and become a monster full of uncontrollable rage. I think at that point, Kora has every right to want to kill Saligia. For everything she's done/wants to do to the world, and for what she's done to her. |
🌌⭐Lilith🌃🌙 #98063 |
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Posted 2024-12-08 11:43:46
First and foremost: to assume that Saligia is more likely to be triggering than Brad isn't fair because you don't know what other people's experiences are and he could be just as triggering as Saligia. No one gets to say anyone's traumas are worse than others. The original argument made was "If Wolvden implements an abusive character to date, you may be putting minors at risk of engaging in toxic relationships because they're mislead by this character and how she's portrayed." I will stand by my argument that Wolvden is not the most prevalent or easily accessible depiction of romanticised toxic/abusive relationships, so I don't believe that any character from Matchmaker will be the reason that a 16/17 year old will find themselves in an unhealthy relationship. Here on the forum, we have since turned this into a conversation about characters triggering players' traumas. The arguments that have been made toward Saligia being triggering for people who have this as a trauma is perfectly valid and understandable, but Saligia is not the only triggering character. I genuinely couldn't care less about whether or not she ends up in Matchmaker because she doesn't affect me. Brad and Chad, they do. But I, unfortunately, would never think to speak out to remove the because of their personalities simply because of what I said already, it is just a game. I don't have to play if I don't want to... My mindset is always going to be that at the end of the day, it's my choice to be here, if I don't like it, I don't log in anymore.. also still feel that murder is worse than manipulation and that Kora only wanted revenge not that it was to "end it for good" |
 °✧ Acari ✧° #2606 |
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Posted 2024-12-08 15:57:21 (edited)
Edit: Sometimes, things that are morally neutral will make you personally uncomfortable, and that's okay. It doesn't make that thing evil. |
 Ghost #49933 |