Increase (or remove) the monthly restriction of pair-bonded breedings

Hi! I stopped by and saw this thread and honestly??? I completely support it!!!

However, I noticed some discourse in the discussion, so I’ll be pulling from that to give my exact reason as to why I support this suggestion and as to why I think it’ll be a good idea, using examples from other’s arguments against it!

(Beginning of my discourse)

“Well then I must have misunderstood the tutorial then, because I was operating under the assumption it was 2 pairs period. Regardless, I'm still not huge on the lack of limit. Realism packs operate under bonded pairs, thus creating a pack with their offspring. Usually, they're the ones breeding.” There isn’t a limit to pair bonds as far as I can tell! I already have three, and already my two uses this month have been used up. As for realism…

This is a game about pixel wolves, and already we’re getting stuff about taking fox pelts and making a wolf look like a fox from crafting??? That’s not realistic at all, since this is clearly more fantastical in the elements of bases and breeding already. (I mean, a wolf with a lavender pelt? Or a green wolf?) So, the points of realism don’t really apply in my eyes. Some functions of the game aren’t realistic, so why should this be? Plus, if we wanted realistic wolf packs, we wouldn’t have any NBWs at all, since a wolf pack only consists of a breeding pair and their offspring, since studies have been done on how wolf packs are formed. I think the most that will be included that isn’t offspring is maybe the parents of the alphas as elders, but even that I’m not sure about. (See here and here) Granted there is information of some wolves joining existing packs, but comparatively to how they typically form, this is a bit fewer than typical family units.

“Some packs CAN have multiple litters if plentiful enough territory, but it's not a hugely common thing and definately not seen in excess. So removing the cap to allow more litters to be born by a breeding pair that realistically would only ~maybe~ happen doesn't make huge sense to me.” Well, isn’t that why there’s a limit to how many wolves a player can have? It costs in game currency (and then paid-for currency) to add onto the limit that a player can have, and then if they can’t sell the pup it eventually has to leave. Even if there is a situation where the market gets a bit more crowded with pups, the trades can’t last forever and eventually people will start learning to either chase pups or figure out how to expand their territory. (And if you say that it’s unlikely that people will do that, I can say from experience that I’ve met a few people who originally swore off chasing pups only to eventually be like ‘look i ain’t got the space, buh bye felicia’, myself included).

And again, the realism doesn’t factor in here since there’s a wolf with over 2000 health that you fight at the start of the game, as well as a bear teaching a wolf how to make ointments for poison.

“Imo breeding males were a stretch regardless, I do not feel the need to push it. I enjoy these games because of realistic attributes, I wouldn't want to see this lean too fantasy in how the packs operate. In breeding, males are worthless unless breeding male quality for a REASON. Raising Dairy Goats I learned this quickly, and I only see this generating a ton of potato pups in particular. No limit means many wont look to apply standards that push the wolves forward, which means excess breeding or potato pups which DOES cause issues.” Okay before I touch anything on this subject, I just??? Want to address??? The fact that your goats are both not wolves and are not wild, so??? This is just a pointless addition??? Just because they’re animals doesn’t make them the same; those are domesticated creatures that produce dairy products, and these creatures are pixelated wolves that can kill a level 20 bear at level 5 but can die to a level 1 badger at level 15.

Also, I’m pretty sure that most people who play this game either play for the breeding, or for writing lore, so saying that they won’t apply standards to their wolf pups is kind of??? Insulting, imo. Like people genuinely care about these wolves, and they won’t just throw random wolves together for the fun of it. You’re not giving the playerbase enough credit here.

“Again, if anything, I would prefer it was a earned reward but definately not handed freely. This is something that I feel was implemented with relatively fair and realistic restrictions. I'm certainly struggling to find a argument that I feel justifies a complete release.” Let’s break down this new breeding function really quick:

1. You have an unlimited amount of Pair Bonds! That’s awesome!

2. The males have a 30 day cool-down compared to the female wolf’s cool-down of 20 days. That’s… understandable. Sure, it’s a bit rigid, but hey, a cool-down is a good way of keeping whatever few impulse breeders are out there from doing it too much!

3. The Pair Bond has a mood penalty if separated. OH!!! I love this mechanic!!! Personally for me, I like it because it makes sense lore-wise, and I write lore-heavy stuff. But outside of it, it's just a neat mechanic that sort of brings a bit of life to your wolves, so if a Pair Bond is broken it would make sense that both of them have a mood penalty too! I also hope that they bring this mechanic to puppy chasing if the pups aren't weaned (to a much smaller scale, ofc!)

4. You can only breed twice with Pair Bonds a month……. This feels restrictive. You already have the cool down of the male wolf (as already stated by user Badger #10939, which I 1000% agree with). They’ve added yet another cool down and limitation to what already seemed like a functional mechanic that actually seems to work well. Having the breeding cap in general seems a little confusing, since the wolves already have the breeding cool down and the Pair Bonding cool down as it stands. Granted, I would also be fine if they just upped the limit; since two is really restrictive. I just feel that heavy limitations would discourage users from even using the mechanic, which seems kind of perturbing since the devs worked so hard on it.

I think that most of these points suggest a fair and realistic restriction except for the limit on the breedings per month. As Badger #10939 and Jessi #4284 stated, this restriction is very difficult from people who want to play from a lore aspect or if they want to stat breed or create projects. This is prohibiting their playstyle as well, not just people who want puppies.

As for ‘earning’ this mechanic… Why should we earn something as simple as breeding? We already have breeding males that can breed with females, and we already have to purchase studs for our females if we have breeding projects or if we want to refrain from inbreeding. So why have a limitation for something we’re already limited on? People shouldn’t have to throw money into this game to play it; it’s not a play to win, after all—it’s a pet sim.

“The argument that it would make breeding easier doesnt make me favor the idea any more, honestly. This game IS meant to be more difficult, again this just feels like handouts. I am not wholly against it being edited, but I do flat out disagree with a complete release or just handed out. Earn the right to breed extra pairs, in my opinion.” That’s why the other restrictions are there, isn’t it? The breeding cooldowns, the mood penalties, only breeding in the pair bond? They’re there to still make the game difficult, even without that “only 2 pair bond breedings a month”. Also the terminology of handouts seems… A little off? There’s a difference between just giving away free puppies randomly and instead setting up restrictions to keep the mechanic balanced. As of right now, the mechanic doesn’t seem balanced too well, since it’s definitely more locked down in ‘you have to stud anyway’. However, I am extremely pleased that they’ve listened to their community and have brought this mechanic in! It’s such an amazing step forward and honestly it makes me more excited to play Wolvden than ever before!!!

“The only issue I have with others playstyles is when it breaks the game. Excess breeding DOES do this. You're absolutely right, nobody has to buy potato pups. But it does not benefit the game whatsoever to have the market flooded with potato pups as many do (not everyone chases) and if they want to keep their own potato pups then absolutely nobody is stopping them. But saying excess breeding of potatoes wouldnt have a averse affect is flat out incorrect. Theres already more than enough people bailing because the market is a mess, they cant sell pups etc. Why did this happen? Over breeding and excess potato pups from even existing pairs. I cannot be convinced to favor a alteration that would add to this issue.”

I want to first point out that… This isn’t going to be ‘game breaking’. Having an influx of ‘potato pups’ in the market isn’t going to completely trash the game. Does it mean sifting through pups to find the ones you want? Yeah, it does, but there are keywords in the trade search for a reason.

The excess breeding of potato puppies isn’t going to do anything to the game anyway; the market is already garbage because people can’t afford certain puppy prices right now since we’re in the early start of the game. As you stated before, this game is supposed to be more difficult; so selling pups should be difficult too. If people are going to ditch because the market is a mess then that’s up to them; it doesn’t affect us. Plus, potato pups are usually sold at low prices, which makes them available for new players and are good for learning game mechanics when the quests arise. Potato pups can have a purpose, and just because they flood the market shouldn’t matter. It won’t break the game; it’ll just fill the trading center with cheaper wolves for newer players. If anything it’ll promote using the trading center more and help people get into that sort of thing.

As for overbreeding; remember that there is a limit to what everyone can do. Puppies don’t last forever, and given time and patience, those trades will eventually drift away, and as I said before, people will start learning to manage their breeding more as they get the hang of the game. Sure there will always be an influx of potato breeders who sell puppies out, but there will also be an influx of newer players who might look at those potatoes and go ‘Oh my god!!! How cute!!! Plus I could use it as my future Healer so that X wolf can stay as X Position!!!!’

“Definately not, it's actually the exact opposite. You dont want to use every male you come across because, once again, you find yourself with issues such as excess breeding of potato pups. Which loops right back to my previous comment. Trust me, breeding useless males isnt something to strive for. If people kept potato breeding to themselves then I don't think itd be a issue. But again, not everyone does that and I'm not thrilled at the idea of raising a restriction that may worsen already existing pup production issues. Yall can argue it wont happen or wont affect others; but it can, it has and it will.” 

Friendly reminder that this isn’t how people play this game, and that you aren’t giving the player base enough credit! People play this game for either lore, breeding projects, or for the gameplay itself. People will only use certain males for certain reasons, no matter what, because that’s how their play style is. I can’t imagine a single person who just randomly grabs wolves off the shelf and says “HAVE PUPPIES” and yeets it at a female wolf without giving a damn. Most people I’ve seen are experimenting with breeding and are trying new projects, and others just want to write about wolves and how their relationships exist within pack lives.

The player base is far more responsible than you seem to think it is; sure people might sell potato pups, but they also will learn to adapt and not breed as many puppies if they can’t afford it. I don’t really get the whole argument on the market thing, with potato pups, because again you don’t have to buy them. No one does, and eventually the trades go away and the pups have to leave if they can’t afford to keep them. It’s not game breaking, and it won’t affect others the way you seem to believe it will. 

“If a change was to occur, then again I feel its need to be a earned reward to have additional breeding pairs or just rework the whole idea altogether. But again, full unlimited breeding seems problematic and the restrictions feel fair and reasonable as is. “ We’re not asking for fully unlimited breeding! ^^ We’re just asking for slightly less restrictions on what’s already kind of a choke hold on it.

Also, I do want to address that I’m not trying to attack anyone here, I just simply disagree and am voicing my disagreements onto the suggestion page. I’m also hoping that people will consider this discussion further on and will help bring thoughts and further discussion onto this topic as a whole. I feel that all concerns and rebuttals should be fleshed out on a suggestion page that way we can sort of come to some kind of agreement as to what should happen later on if or when the mods decide to address this.

(I also want to note that I am reading through this and pulling arguments and discussions of the mechanic functionality as I go along, so if this feels condensed towards you, I do apologize!)

I would also love to reiterate a brilliant idea that user Badger #10939 pulled out in one of their comments;

“Breeding pairs will lead to less pups, not more. Using my own lair as an example, I have 25 slots. So if I wanted to optimize litters bred/genetic diversity under each system I would do:

Old System

1 stud + 24 females = 24 litters

Current System

1 stud + 2 pairs + 20 females = 22 litters

Unlimited Pairs

1 stud + 12 pairs = 12 litters.”

This is a perfect example of how the pairings could lead to less litters than more, and how even if potato pups are born, it won’t actually flood the market as much as before! I don’t think I could’ve calculated that on my own since I’m… not the best, mathematically, but this is something I can definitely get behind if one of the major concerns is pup floods!

“Most likely, the more males able to breed the fewer people will send out stud requests. While there will be males sought after for their mutations/stats/etc, the outcome is likely to be less stud requests overall. In my opinion, that is a bad thing, so I do not support the suggestion. I think it is well balanced as-is.”

As user Goose #21992 stated, I doubt that having in-pack pairings is going to decrease the amount of studdings that a person would have. Most studs have rare markings/rare bases/genetic mutations/etc, and others who have regular studs don’t get that many requests anyway. I, myself, have a merle stud with 8 markings and over 300 stats, but I haven’t gotten a single stud request at all. Studding is very much already a restrictive thing and some people can’t afford stud requests if they want to prevent inbreeding, which makes their gameplay less fun for them. Having the pair bond options will allow people who don’t have as much in game money to be able to have puppies and avoid inbreeding, while still letting them save up and stud out to rare bases and markings that they want to obtain.

“When tier 3s are more common and special wolves are out, nothing is stopping me from getting a bunch of special wolves and breeding my females to them and never studding to a special based wolf. It probably would save me SC and GC in the long run, and I can make them how I want. The limit prevents that to some extent, which is why I like it.

I like that the mechanic gives me some freedom to pick a male and female I want to pair, but that it keeps me from doing that to an excess. It is very well thought out.

I also think hurting studs makes it harder for players to make SC/GC which is not good.

Also, now that the pair bond are out, you do not have to inbreed your wolves without studs... so I am not quite understanding”

I believe personally that if a person doesn’t want to touch the studding market at all, they should still have access to the special bases and markings if they don’t want to mess with other packs. Some people’s play style differs from that and they prefer a solo play where they don’t interact with others to the point of breeding, but that solo play can mean they can miss out on the special bases and markings and can cause them to feel left out. This breeding mechanic now allows them to do that, but it has so many restrictions it still feels like they’re discouraged from playing a more solo game. 

If you like the limit, that’s perfectly fine! If you want to be limited to two pair bond breedings a month, do that! But let others have a choice or an option to do more if they’d prefer to ignore studding and such.

As for what Goose was getting at; eventually, bloodlines do begin to mingle over time. This is normal in a game like this, and it honestly makes sense. But having these restrictions means that the mingling of bloodlines of the wolves happens a lot sooner since people can’t breed as many fresh-blood puppies as they want since wolves don’t last that long in game. So, if someone ends up with a fully connected bloodline and wants to avoid inbreeding because the mechanic was too restrictive, they now have to stud to try and add in fresher bloodlines, which can dampen their gameplay a lot sooner than it would should they have unlimited breeding pairs. This also loops back to the stud market; people will still stud out for fresh bloodlines, so this won’t dampen the market in my eyes and might instead help flood the stud market so that people can offer GC/SC for new bloodlines, and can obtain GC/SC for sending their wolves out to renew bloodlines in another’s pack.

“it's not that I'm looking to hurt studs. I'm not using them now, and I won't be using them ever, so your argument that it would "hurt player interaction" goes out the window. Player interaction is up to the players and shouldn't be forced. And the mechanic isn't very well thought out if it essentially does nothing for a majority of the wolves. If anything, the cap should be increased. I'm not saying remove it entirely. And yes, with only 2 breeding pairs a month, the blood lines are *still* going to get mixed, especially with the territory limitations. Having more breeding pairs going than 2 a month will help keep that from happening.” - Goose #21992 had a brilliant explanation of this that honestly words it better than I can, and only adds to what I was saying.

“I am sorry but it is still blowing my mind that a pack of 200 wolves where it's set up in say, 100 pairs even would not be able to breed all their pairs - pairs portrayed and explained as very close bonds and get severe mood penalties when splitting them up - would all not be able to breed. A good amount of them would eventually die of old age before they ever had the chance.

2 pairs of 100 would be able to breed per month. That does not feel balanced to me at all. It does not sound right. It does not feel like 'careful breeding choices' to me. It just feels heartbreaking.

The 2 limit feels more like it should be a stepping stone of a feature like territory space where the player can work to expand its limit in some way which would be fair and acceptable, but since right now it isn't it's just wild and absolutely insane for me to think about. 

I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record at this point but it's just so WILD to me that it's absolutely skewed like that.” - Jessi #4284 summed this up brilliantly as well. It does feel skewed and unbalanced in how it’s set up and restricted. It’s definitely a choke hold that doesn’t need to be there.

“I think that maybe being able to raise the limit (to a maximum) through events could work. (I think VehementRed was kinda getting at it earlier?)

The main concern is that, when something gets unbalanced it is really hard to balance later. If raising the limit causes issues, fixing it would make many players unhappy.”

Okay but what about people who don’t want to be a part of the events? What about people who would rather create their own events for each month lore-wise or would much rather just focus on breeding than anything else?

Plus, we don’t even know what the mods are planning for events, so using this as a way to raise the limit doesn’t seem logical for people’s particular playstyle. People should have the option to opt out of events without having to worry that they’re going to miss out on certain features.

Raising the limit or completely removing it shouldn’t cause as many issues as some people fear. As I earlier stated, Badger had a brilliant example of how it would even control the amount of litters that would be coming out and how it would bring about the desire for male puppies! I honestly can’t see an issue with releasing the limit entirely.

“It's not the end-all-be-all, but it is an important mechanic. The exchange of SC and GC between players is kinda what I was getting at earlier. I do understand studding is costly, I have paid for several, but it is part of the game and it has a market of its own. I don't feel like hurting that market benefits the game, especially in the long run.

The puppy issue... that is not going to be solved by upping the limit, sadly.

10 female wolves can easily produce 30-40 puppies in a month. There is not going to be enough demand for those puppies unless a new feature is introduced to help remove many of them.”

Again, looking at Badger’s mathematical equations, it shows easily how the number is reduced.

If there are 10 females breeding in Pair Bonds, they may produce 30-40 pups a month, yes—that is if the person is maxing out her and the male breeding cycles 1000% of the time, which I don’t think I’ve seen a single person do yet—but if there were instead 20 female wolves (an additional 10 to replace the male wolves in the Pair Bond) bred to one male wolf, that would be over 60-80 pups a month. That’s through the old Studding Mechanic. Also remember that it’s not just the females that have breeding cool downs now; it’s the males as well. The older studding mechanic caused more puppies to be born because the female only had a 20 day cool down, which meant that more than 60-80 pups could’ve been born per month compared to if you had a simple pair bond where you had to wait the month for the male.

Also, some people don’t mass breed and max breed their wolves, and others just want the Pair Bonds for lore. I’ve seen a lot of people who want this mechanic simply for lore reasons as well as just… Wanting to refrain from inbreeding.

“I think maybe changing it to 1 pair bond per 10/15 wolves is perfectly fair?” I agree with this, 1000%!!!! Having the Pair Bonds linked to the amount in the pack (as mentioned by users peach.candy #419, and I believe Jessi #4284) will help keep it a bit more restricted for players who are worried about puppy overflow, and will let other people feel more free to  breed among their pack without worrying too much about inbreeding and can instead focus on projects or lore!

“Yes, earning more breeding pairs is what I was overall trying to get at. Sorry that my words came off as a total disagreement. To clarify I'm not against this, just have concerns and feel earning breeding pair increases would be better vs outright removal is all.”

Having concerns about earning vs outright removal is totally fine! It just shows that you deeply love this game and want the best for it!

I, too, have concerns over breeding mechanics and how it might break the game, but that’s why I’m in support of the removal of the breeding pair limitations.

Granted, I understand that it might not happen that way, so I’d also support the idea of having to earn more pair bond breedings so long as it was easier to obtain (such as through SC or quest items, instead of through GC or actual money).

All in all, at the end of the day, everyone should be allowed to play how they want.

Wolvden itself should be a place where people can work in the stud market, or stay solo and separated from other packs, and that everyone should find compromise!

I hope that this cumulation of thoughts and grievances and my rebuttals against them have helped some people try and find a common ground! And please, if anyone has any newer suggestions, I’d be happy to hear them and discuss them! Breeding is important to me for lore purposes, since I’m definitely a lore-heavy player, so finding common ground to make everyone feel a bit more at ease with the new breeding mechanic is important to me! 

People’s playstyles are their own, and I truly want to try and find a middle ground where everyone’s decently content!

(also really sorry if that was a lot. The topic on breeding mechanics is very near and dear to my heart!!!)