Keep Lead Wolf Looks
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Keep Lead Wolf Looks
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Posted 2021-10-14 11:18:14 (edited)
The reason for this is because I was reluctant to join a game which does not allow you to keep your lead wolf's current looks for a second, or third, etc - time. It took a lot of self persuasion to give it a go and I'm enjoying the game so far except for this one aspect. I've played lioden for many many years, spending a lot of money on the game. I've always found it fun as my personal play style involves breeding rare bases/rare marking combos onto lions until I made myself the perfect 'heir' for a stud. It keeps me busy on the game, always having a goal to look forward to and invest in. Now, imagine spending so much money and time breeding your ultimate heir - only to lose him forever as a lead when they retire. Well, that's the likely outcome as it would be difficult to continuously try to clone him... I know there will be a lot of no support to this off of the bat - because if it was implemented like how it is on lioden, there would be some big changes... especially since LEAD wolves can also be set to STUD. If implemented like lioden, it would mean: being able to mutation/heritage replace but keeping the old (current) looks of your lead. CONS (?) - This may affect the stud market - Could make NBW's less desirable or decrease their resale value unless the NBW's have rarer/newer bases or markings to the lead you want to keep the appearance of PROS (!) - Forever being able to keep the appearance of your favourite wolf and breeding more like them. - Not losing all of your hard work and investment - Breeding for certain bases / marking combos are more often than not, a time consuming process and this likely means that the wolf's end result will be an exaggeratedly long heritage wolf. Which just isn't desirable to a lot of players as a stud....even if they are clean. Mutation/heritage replacing would fix this. - If some combo markings / rarer markings are added in future which are exclusively breed only, you won't be able to RMA them on your 'forever' lead, which keeps their rarity, well, rare! - It could help to 'recycle' plain NBW's without chasing & deleting them - Your lead is always your display/no.1 featured wolf, (s)he will always be on show to those who come across your profile  I thought perhaps being able to freeze a lead instead of retiring may help somewhat but - I personally like being able to have some use with my favourite wolf. A frozen wolf is nothing more than a trophy, whilst a lead wolf can still explore, breed etc... Hopefully I won't bring chaos with this suggestion...  Critique is encouraged but remember to be kind  PS - This should be obvious, but if this was added to the game - you would still be able to retire a lead and replace it with an entirely new wolf too, just like normal. Keeping looks would just be an additional option, not a whole reboot. |
𝗟єx ᴠσ𝓻𝔱ϵx 🌀 #48499 |
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Posted 2021-10-14 14:04:44
That being said, I do see pros to this as well, since it would help out the higher gen/inbred market, as people could breed and breed to create their perfect stud, and then heritage replace them so they're actually worth something for all their work. High gen wolves with marks in one slot or another would suddenly have more of a purpose. But of course, the current focus on chasing does give similar opportunities, but this change would give more a of a push towards actually breeding wolves, and put more power in the players rather than just RNG. So I'm very conflicted personally. I dont want to lose that extra challenge, that comes with having to come up with a new wolf every time, but I do really want people to be able to breed more than just NBW/G2s and still make a profit. |
 SyntheticHumor🍁TaNOOKi #872 |
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Posted 2021-10-14 14:32:38 (edited)
Truthfully, since joining the game I've only made decent ingame currency by selling T3 short gens. Nothing else I've tried to sell, sells. Most players I've asked about long heritage / inbreeding say they don't mind it but wouldn't do it themselves. That mentality spreads, and it really has put a kind of roadblock on how some would like to play their game because it becomes so so difficult to make ingame currency playing it any other way. The only compromise I've really thought of on this, is perhaps a limit can be set to what you can replace with? no shorter than G3? for example? Or a cap of the amount of stats you can replace with if keeping old looks.... however I didn't mention this in the suggestion as I still feel even that doesn't bring equality and would still make players have a hierarchy amongst those who choose to stud only NBW's :( Ps. Thank you for your honest feedback it's appreciated 
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𝗟єx ᴠσ𝓻𝔱ϵx 🌀 #48499 |
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Posted 2021-10-14 19:17:44 (edited)
First, as a lore player, it seems a little weird to copy-paste one wolf's appearance onto another. My current lead looks a lot like his dad, but with some differences, which makes sense! He's his own character! In fact I customized him somewhat to look more like his deceased grandfather. In any case, it would feel odd to have him just be a carbon copy of his dad, as if I never switched leads at all. (edit: though I guess since it's just an option I could just choose not to do it) Second, I feel like this would massively devalue long-gen wolves (like, even worse than they are now!) which is not good. Everyone could take a long-gen t3 with fancy markings and just slap them onto a rare lineage g2 potato pup. As opposed to the current system, where there's more of a tradeoff - you might stud to a long-gen t3 because he has a gorgeous set of breed-only markings you can't find on an obscure lineage stud. Third, it seems a bit unbalanced in favor of lead-studs? I've always had my lead and stud be separate wolves. But if only leads can pass down appearance, that's a big advantage that pack member studs can never get. |
 Lionel #34199 |
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Posted 2021-10-14 19:45:40 (edited)
The reason being because Wolven and Lioden have different markets, playstyles, and player cultures. Wolvden is a more challenging game, and the chasing mechanic has created its own community, culture, and command of the market. People who Raise & Chase do so because low-gen wolves ARE so high in value. As Lionel said, being able to heritage replace leads/breeding males would cause higher-gen wolves to be worth EVEN LESS. I saw on Lioden when the shift away from the Big 4/Inbred lions took place. It made a lot of players have to choose between the newer, more popular style of playing (no Big 4 heritage/not inbred/usually heritageless) vs the old one of not really caring, especially people with breeding projects. I'll be honest, my breeding project lions were inbred. I was saving money to make my perfect lion by studding within my pride, keeping females who were closer and closer to the dream. I played with 0 consequence because I KNEW I could heritage & mutation replace the final product. It made me somewhat lazy with my breeding project, I'll be honest. Wolvden, on the other hand, really does reward players for doing things "the hard way." (Now, there's something to be said about RMAs eliminating the need for breeding projects if you have enough money, luck, and patience, but that's for a different suggestion.) There's a community that's formed around Raising and Chasing wolves, and I've seen dozens and dozens of times people offer to return chased wolves to their chaser, which I think is awesome! I'm actually starting a teeny tiny breeding project of my own that requires a ton of R&C and some luck to get the heritageless wolf that I want back. It encourages me to plan to interact with other players - which I think is super neat! It also rewards folks for cooperating, as they'll be able to make a nice profit from me buying back my wolf/wolves if they're found! I also appreciate Wolvden's seperation of stats vs looks. There's a niche for both of them, and I appreciate that in order to achieve both, there's a (mostly small) setback. If you want a stunning breeding male with excellent (leaderboard) stats, they're probably Gen3+ and/or are related to a Big Name. There's a risk/reward for this choice, with the risk being not commanding as much of a presence in the stud market, but the reward being having a pretty wolf that breeds higher stat puppies. Higher stat puppies mean higher stat wolves, which means better hunters/etc! Players have to make choices, and I like that. I like being able to say "I don't particularly care about huge stats, what matters to me are pretty wolves with no heritage or being low gen." I like that other people can play the game differently, focusing on stats and being ok with higher gen/longer lineage wolves and having better hunters! Maybe they don't really care about studding their wolves out. And that's ok! I really appreciate the choices Wolvden gives players combined with the fact that playing ALL corners of the market (looks, stats, low gen/heritageless) is hard/impossible in some cases. It creates different niches for different players to fill, instead of there being a one-size-fits-all approach to a successful game. (Some people sell food! Some have really fancy studs! Some have high stats! Some have heritageless T3 wolves thanks to the R&C community! And that's all super neat!) Apologies for the novel, but I have a lot of thoughts. ^^; |
 Azzy #2727 |
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Posted 2021-10-17 22:50:50
Just another thing I wanted to mention: wolves live a long time on here, around half a year if you roll over daily. I still think it's worth customizing because you will be seeing that wolf in your den for half a year. I can't remember how long lions live on LD (haven't played in years) but I think it's good for the overall game to essentially have "turnovers" of what's in style vs what's not. It allows for variation, so wolves with less popular marks can have their turn in the spotlight! For example, merle. At the beginning of the game, merle was all the rage. Then it fell out of fashion and people really did not care for it. Now, it is popular again. I'm not sure that sort of thing would have happened with look-keeping. |
 Xeva #16394 |
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Posted 2021-10-18 05:50:32
The lack of this feature is the reason why I will never customise any of my lead wolves (they are neither immortal nor can be copied, which makes them all disposable) and why I am no longer interested in the game. |
 Snær #35015 |
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Posted 2021-10-18 08:57:15
Just another thing I wanted to mention: wolves live a long time on here, around half a year if you roll over daily. I still think it's worth customizing because you will be seeing that wolf in your den for half a year. Agreed! I've spent a lot of gc on customizing wolves, a lot of whom have since passed away, but I don't regret any of it. It was worth it to have pretty wolves in my den and for their pups to be pretty as well. |
Lionel #34199 |
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Posted 2021-10-18 11:52:15
I do feel that I need to remind that this feature (if implemented) would not stop you from doing/playing as you normally would - it would just be an additional feature, you can pick and choose whether you would like to keep old looks or go with a new do. It would bring instant equality to those who are hindered by the mass negativity of inbreeding/long gen on this game because after making a severely inbred or long gen wolf a lead, you can then pay an additional fee to replace him/her once more to keep the old looks but use (for example) a potato NBW to wipe its heritage to G1. The Trading market will improve for buying IB and long gens - because they'll be wanted for their marks and base rather than being overlooked due to heritage. Stud market would probably be affected somewhat, I can't deny that but it would also add more variety in choice and less exclusion because I know a lot of people who only search for NBW studs whenever they breed outside of their den's... I can already foresee it affecting the NBW market as can a lot of you - but in truth, I don't necessarily see that as such a bad thing. NBW's (especially T3's) are priced... extortionately for what they are. Say I decide to breed for specific combo markings and a T3 base, and my desired design is super difficult to achieve without inbreeding or having a long heritage - then to take a chance of making it into a G1, I have to let it go into the chase pool, hope that someone picks it up, and then... after all of that hard work and expense spent making such a great wolf, I have to buy it back from some lucky soul for 500 GC. Or... I lose it completely because said player that picked it up decides to keep it. Or it is failed to be picked up and deleted. Then I'm back to square one. Because even if it *was* once my wolf, it no longer is and I lose all right to it once it is chased. I'm not against R&C by the way, I raise and chase T3's that I don't need to wipe their heritage and make someones day a much happier one but the play style I'd like to play, just isn't available here. And the debated solutions to it just aren't obtainable unfortunately. I don't want to have an inbred or long gen stud because I'd never get requests. No matter how hard I worked to make it, it all amounts to nothing if I can't somehow find a work-around which allows me to replace its heritage in a safe and achievable way. It's highly unlikely that I will be able to change anyone's mentality of inbreeding or long gen on this game. It is too embedded by this point to do anything about it, in fact when I first joined the game and asked what people thought of my 'chosen' stud/heir, it was shunned for being too long a gen. Or I post a pretty wolf in chat and the first reaction is 'oh.. its inbred.' The word I'm looking for isn't exactly that it's hurtful... but, it does make one feel a little excluded. I've read current responses such as "there are multiple niche markets which allow for a variety of play styles, and look-replacing would essentially get rid of that" but I fail to understand how it would get rid of it at all when its only an additional option. If you were to keep looks and replace with an NBW, aren't they generally low stat anyhow? I can't see a g1 stat monster taking over someone who has a stud which has come from a long line of effort in stat breeding. Theirs would surely still be better in terms of stats... Those who don't mind customizing a lead - I'm glad that you don't regret it, but there are many people supporting 'freeze a lead / make them immortal' threads due to the fact they feel like they've wasted their money customizing their lead only for it to die and go to dynasty. "It made a lot of players have to choose between the newer, more popular style of playing" This is exactly how I feel about wolvden... With lore, I agree it would be weird to have the same lead all the time unless you specifically want an immortal wolf somewhere in your story line but as you said you could choose not to, too. I hope I'm not coming across as pedantic, I just feel rather passionate about this topic (as I see you are too) and wish that there was some way to improve this situation without disrupting the current game economy too much. I do appreciate all of your feedback. |
𝗟єx ᴠσ𝓻𝔱ϵx 🌀 #48499 |
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Posted 2021-10-18 12:24:45 (edited)
I don't want to have an inbred or long gen stud because I'd never get requests. No matter how hard I worked to make it, it all amounts to nothing if I can't somehow find a work-around which allows me to replace its heritage in a safe and achievable way. This is what I mean by you have to make choices. If you want a pretty wolf with a ton of breed-only markings, then you're going to have to make the choice of keeping them for their looks (your wants) vs having something the stud market deems valuable (other players' wants). It would bring instant equality to those who are hindered by the mass negativity of inbreeding/long gen on this game because after making a severely inbred or long gen wolf a lead, you can then pay an additional fee to replace him/her once more to keep the old looks but use (for example) a potato NBW to wipe its heritage to G1. Being able to replace wolf looks isn't as great of an equalizer as it seems. It would actually cater more toward the market turning into a one-size-fits-all approach rather than niches. If you were able to keep the looks of a wolf, EVERY desirable stud would be T3 with breed-only marks, NBW, and most would have high-extremely high stats (as stats matter WAY more in Wolvden than they do Lioden). "It made a lot of players have to choose between the newer, more popular style of playing" The Wolvden market hasn't really changed since day one. Even in early access. The player culture etched out different niches. There's no one "popular" style of playing. There's plenty of folks who have longer gen wolves for their stats, folks who have NBW wolves, and folks who have lower-gen but higher-stat wolves that sit somewhere in between. The Trading market will improve for buying IB and long gens - because they'll be wanted for their marks and base rather than being overlooked due to heritage. I really don't think the market would improve. Because at that point - what's stopping everyone from inbreeding their wolves and/or having higher generations? Nothing. So everyone would be doing it. They'd lose even more value. I can already foresee it affecting the NBW market as can a lot of you - but in truth, I don't necessarily see that as such a bad thing. NBW's (especially T3's) are priced... extortionately for what they are. The T3 market has been stabilizing as more are bred and more go through the hands of R&C. I had a Mojave NBW that I couldn't sell at "normal" market prices - so I raffled her. Because NBW T3s are becoming less and less rare (thanks to R&C and all the work they do), their prices are coming down. But rare wolves with no lineage IS something rare, and it's sought after. People pay what they think they're worth. And, frankly, what they can make back. It's not hard at all to make 300 GC back from a NBW via stud requests. If you were to keep looks and replace with an NBW, aren't they generally low stat anyhow? I can't see a g1 stat monster taking over someone who has a stud which has come from a long line of effort in stat breeding. Theirs would surely still be better in terms of stats... NBWs can reach 800-1000 stats with a decent amount of effort from the owners. Some people who have more time to play and/or GC they are willing to spend on energy items will go higher. Just have a look at the leaderboards. The difference is maybe 300 stats on the high end. If people were able to look-replace their heirs, high-stat studs would command even less of the market because the NBW look-replaced studs would be too good of a deal to pass. Gen1, breed-only looks on probably T3 or Special* bases, and likely close to the same stats. It's not a hard choice to make. EDIT: I would just like to add on that you can actually have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. As WD allows for multiple males to breed within a pack, the easiest solution is to have one wolf your breed-only project that you're happy with and then have another wolf that the stud market likes. |
Azzy #2727 |