Same Sex Breeding Item

Same Sex Breeding Item
Posted 2022-02-02 12:21:32 (edited) #651404 I love making same sex pairs for my wolves, and I've always found myself a little sad that I'll never be able to see what their pups would look like. I know we have the enclave to let them adopt, which I think is a great feature, but I like browsing the enclave to adopt rare puppies and it makes their "Adopted Offspring" section really cluttered. I think an item to let them breed would be great both for practical reasons (what would their babies look like!) and lore reasons (I want "their" puppies to be in a separate group from my droves of adopted puppies). It would also get rid of the weird choice you have to make when pairing your wolves- do I want them to be gay, like in my lore for them, or useful to my breeding projects? Likewise, it would stop people with trans characters from having to make another weird choice- do I want my wolf to be biologically a different sex from their gender, and get misgendered by the game constantly, or not get misgendered but not be able to breed? You'd just be able to choose whichever feels right to you. I think it might be neat to have a magical item in the same vein as the sex changer that you could use to produce one breeding of same sex pairings. This item would only be usable by same sex pair bonds. To keep things simple, it could instantly produce fully weaned pups, only be usable by same sex pair bonds, and cost more than the instant pup delivery feather (and maybe the sex changer combined). It could also have the same cooldown as having to wait to wean puppies and go back into heat (20 rollovers I believe?). Maybe in game lore a stork could deliver them or something haha. It would just need a new art asset and a bit of coding, depending on how the website is currently set up regarding breeding. After some discussion, we've come up with some mechanics that I believe would keep the game balanced and fun (as of page 3 of discussion): The puppies are delivered via stork, with no wolf being "pregnant", but you still have to wait the normal pregnancy period for the puppies to be delivered. They arrive like any other puppies, and have the same nursing mechanic as normal pups (same weaning period, survival rate linked to the wolf they're nursing on, etc) For female pairbonds: When you use the item, you pick one of the wolves in the pair that will nurse the puppies when they arrive. For the sake of the game's coding this wolf would act as the "mother", and would be need to be nested before pup delivery. For male pairbonds: When you use the item, you pick a female wolf in your pack that will nurse the puppies when they arrive (a surrogate mother, or wet nurse). There was talk of her needing to have already given birth at least once before taking these ones on, but that's not necessary. For the sake of the game's coding this wolf would act as the "mother", and would be need to be nested before pup delivery. The wet nurse can still get pregnant with her own puppies along her normal heat cycle (so it doesn't unfairly debuff your surrogate mother), but the pup's survival would be tied to her. Whatever wolf is chosen to nurse the future puppies will get the pregnancy heart on the den page, with a countdown until the puppies arrive. This is so you remember to nest them! The item would have the same cooldown period as a normal breeding (20 rollovers, I believe?) Any wolf in the pair without a pregnancy heart would get a symbol where the pregnancy heart would usually go, to count down the "puppy delivery period" (which would take the same amount of time as a pregnancy). The pawprint symbol was suggested! 🐾 Any mention of pregnancy would be replaced with "Puppy Delivery" Lastly, if you came here upset that this isn't realistic, I'd recommend you reflect on why things like "sex changer, magical item of make your wolf instantly an adult, blue wolves, altering their very genetic sequences, etc" are acceptable to you, but this item is not. Also, if you think that this is somehow insulting to real people who chose to adopt real life children, I hope you're not breeding ANY wolves. Either they all come from the enclave or you're a hypocrite	Ghost #49933

Posted 2022-02-02 12:21:32 (edited)

#651404

I love making same sex pairs for my wolves, and I've always found myself a little sad that I'll never be able to see what their pups would look like. I know we have the enclave to let them adopt, which I think is a great feature, but I like browsing the enclave to adopt rare puppies and it makes their "Adopted Offspring" section really cluttered.

I think an item to let them breed would be great both for practical reasons (what would their babies look like!) and lore reasons (I want "their" puppies to be in a separate group from my droves of adopted puppies). It would also get rid of the weird choice you have to make when pairing your wolves- do I want them to be gay, like in my lore for them, or useful to my breeding projects? Likewise, it would stop people with trans characters from having to make another weird choice- do I want my wolf to be biologically a different sex from their gender, and get misgendered by the game constantly, or not get misgendered but not be able to breed? You'd just be able to choose whichever feels right to you.

I think it might be neat to have a magical item in the same vein as the sex changer that you could use to produce one breeding of same sex pairings. This item would only be usable by same sex pair bonds.

To keep things simple, it could instantly produce fully weaned pups, only be usable by same sex pair bonds, and cost more than the instant pup delivery feather (and maybe the sex changer combined). It could also have the same cooldown as having to wait to wean puppies and go back into heat (20 rollovers I believe?). Maybe in game lore a stork could deliver them or something haha. It would just need a new art asset and a bit of coding, depending on how the website is currently set up regarding breeding.

After some discussion, we've come up with some mechanics that I believe would keep the game balanced and fun (as of page 3 of discussion):

The puppies are delivered via stork, with no wolf being "pregnant", but you still have to wait the normal pregnancy period for the puppies to be delivered.

They arrive like any other puppies, and have the same nursing mechanic as normal pups (same weaning period, survival rate linked to the wolf they're nursing on, etc)

For female pairbonds:

When you use the item, you pick one of the wolves in the pair that will nurse the puppies when they arrive. For the sake of the game's coding this wolf would act as the "mother", and would be need to be nested before pup delivery.

For male pairbonds:

When you use the item, you pick a female wolf in your pack that will nurse the puppies when they arrive (a surrogate mother, or wet nurse). There was talk of her needing to have already given birth at least once before taking these ones on, but that's not necessary. For the sake of the game's coding this wolf would act as the "mother", and would be need to be nested before pup delivery.

The wet nurse can still get pregnant with her own puppies along her normal heat cycle (so it doesn't unfairly debuff your surrogate mother), but the pup's survival would be tied to her.

Whatever wolf is chosen to nurse the future puppies will get the pregnancy heart on the den page, with a countdown until the puppies arrive. This is so you remember to nest them!

The item would have the same cooldown period as a normal breeding (20 rollovers, I believe?)

Any wolf in the pair without a pregnancy heart would get a symbol where the pregnancy heart would usually go, to count down the "puppy delivery period" (which would take the same amount of time as a pregnancy). The pawprint symbol was suggested! 🐾

Any mention of pregnancy would be replaced with "Puppy Delivery"

Lastly, if you came here upset that this isn't realistic, I'd recommend you reflect on why things like "sex changer, magical item of make your wolf instantly an adult, blue wolves, altering their very genetic sequences, etc" are acceptable to you, but this item is not.
Also, if you think that this is somehow insulting to real people who chose to adopt real life children, I hope you're not breeding ANY wolves. Either they all come from the enclave or you're a hypocrite

Ghost
#49933

Posted 2022-02-03 11:32:28

#652497

Support. I've had multiple instances where I want canonically male wolves to breed to studs to continue on their line, and it's left me conflicted. (I guess this topic is only talking about pairbonds, but the principle is the same.) I would've paid a lot to keep them biologically male but still magically have litters.

My main concern is that it might be difficult to code; I'm not sure if the game is set up to allow the same wolf to both sire pups and become pregnant with pups.

Lionel
#34199

Posted 2022-02-04 10:51:10 (edited)

#653365

I like it a lot!! I think it would be very comforting to not have to change a wolf's sex and gendered language just so it can breed with its same-gender pair bond ;; I just think it should...
- be limited to pair bonded ones only
- be limited to ONCE per pair bond
- not apply to breeding males, so you couldn't use your own BM for this or stud others' BMs for it

But I also think this would really complicate the family trees, and make them even harder to navigate than they already are ;; So I'm gonna hold my vote on this one I think.

But here are suggestions that address at least a couple of the issues you want yours to resolve! c:,

1) This suggestion is to allow scrying regardless of age and gender so that you can plan pair bonds and breedings better
https://www.wolvden.com/chatter/topic/115116

2) This one is to allow players to customize their wolves' pronouns!
https://www.wolvden.com/chatter/topic/210000

Love the inclusivity angle this is going for c:

BeastOfTheyRoad
#52596

Posted 2022-02-05 17:06:12 (edited)

#654711

This would be nice. It would complicate Family trees if two wolves were same gender. Thou i have same gender pairings recently did something hard changed my Alphas mate to female thou i still refer to him has him. I wanted to continue both their lines together.

Im not opposed to this but i cant support it either. It would take long time. I'm neutral with this thou i like idea of this it would be nice to not change gender. I understand why they do this. Or they make a separate thing even doing that would cause a problem with family trees.

Scream
#9176

Posted 2022-02-05 18:34:02 (edited)

#654881

I'm not positive how it would complicate family trees, really! Instead of having maternal and paternal lines they could just be called familial lines, and have the sex of the wolf listed next to their name (edit: it looks like the sex of the wolf is already there, so I'm really not sure what would be confusing? am I missing something?)
I agree that it shouldn't be able to be used on breeding males - I think that would unnecessarily complicate things when this would more be a feature for role-playing aspects, where you Really don't want to change your wolf's gender permanently. That's why I specified that it should only be for pair bonds, to keep things from getting too crazy!

Also @BeastOfTheyRoad, thanks so much for those links! I think they're very relevant and great suggestions, though they don't fully cover the reasoning for wanting a same sex breeding item c:

Ghost
#49933

Posted 2022-02-24 00:44:57

#673604

I don't think this is a good idea though I understand the sentiment. It's impossible, and I know this is a game with fantasy lore, but to me it just doesn't make a lot of sense? IRL same-sex couples adopt and I think you still can with same-sex pairbonds (correct me if I'm wrong.)

I think this would complicate breeding lines in the display, be pretty complicated with fertility rates between two females, and in general is just a strange concept to me personally because that's not how breeding works?

Maybe a compromise would be allowing your pups to be adopted by other wolves in your pack; ie. if wolves A and B bred a litter, but you want C and D to raise a pup from your pack for lore reasons, allowing that to become a feature? I realize that wouldn't account for markings/stats, but at least it would be something.

reggie
#54017

Posted 2022-02-24 09:44:21 (edited)

#673954

Frankly, I don't think that "this is impossible in real life" is a good reason. Here is a short, but not exhaustive, list of the supernatural things we can do in this game (that aren't hidden in the lore - they affect gameplay): use an item to magically change the sex of a wolf, change their eye color, change their fundamental genetics, the entire lunar event (bright blue wolves), make a wolf go into heat, make a puppy Magically Super Grow into adulthood, make them immortal, etc, etc.

None of those other supernatural features are problems, though! That's because this is a game, and often it's acceptable (and encouraged) to suspend our disbelief about what's realistic during a game in order to make it more fun. I'd really like everyone who thinks that a (highly restricted and situational) magical same sex breeding item is taking things too far away from realism to consider why you're okay with the aforementioned supernatural events, but not this one specifically (and also post what your reasoning is here because I'd love to hear it / have it added to the discussion)! I don't think just saying "this can't happen in real life" adds anything to the conversation on its own, personally. Concerns about how it would affect gameplay/the balance of the game are much more interesting.

That being said, same gender (human) couples often do have children together in real life, and adoption isn't the only option. Even putting aside the fact that many trans people can still have biological children within their same gender partnerships, there are a lot of options that cis couples can utilize to have children together. It's honestly pretty cool - I'd recommend looking it up!

Of course this is about humans, and that doesn't happen with wolves, but neither do many of our current game mechanics (the Herbalist role comes to mind, not to mention the whole "currency" based foundation of the game). They're very anthropomorphized, which I feel makes any comparison to humans in this regard an apt one.

People keep talking about how it would complicate breeding lines, and I'm still not positive why it would do that. Could someone explain that to me? ^^ I fear I'm missing something.

The question you raise about fertility rate is an interesting one. After some thought, I don't believe it would be an issue. From what I understand, the fertility rate serves two purposes 1. to determine how easy it is for a wolf to get pregnant 2. to determine the chance of lethal mutation. #1 wouldn't be a problem - the item would simply create puppies instantly, without needing to "try to breed". We could eliminate any issue with the second one by automatically setting any mutation chance for these breedings to 0.

This does make me consider another option regarding the mechanics of the item - if it's too weird that the puppies just Spawn without a pregnancy cooldown, maybe there could be one, of sorts. Like both wolves get the little pregnancy heart, but any mention of pregnancy is replaced by "waiting for pup delivery". Or some other phrase, so they don't just immediately appear! Of course females couldn't go into heat or get pregnant during this time - it would still count as them being "pregnant" within the mechanics of the game.

Speaking of heat, I think it would be reasonable for female couples to not have to be in heat to use this item, but also not be on breeding cooldown. If that seems too lax, another option is to require both of them to be in heat at the same time, but that would often require the use of at least one elk heart item and would complicate things considerably. Just some thoughts!

All that being said, I do also like the idea of adoption within a pack. It doesn't address my reasons for wanting this item, but it's a cool concept for sure. Thank you for adding to the discussion!

(also wow I'm looking at this now and. Sorry for being so wordy. I just have a lot of thoughts)

Ghost
#49933

Posted 2022-02-24 09:56:41

#673968

Maybe a compromise would be allowing your pups to be adopted by other wolves in your pack; ie. if wolves A and B bred a litter, but you want C and D to raise a pup from your pack for lore reasons, allowing that to become a feature? I realize that wouldn't account for markings/stats, but at least it would be something.

I support the idea of letting couples adopt pups who aren't from the enclave. (There's a suggestion topic for that here, which brings up a lot of good points.) But, as you mentioned, that doesn't account for stats. Generally, if I'm breeding a "keeper" pup (whether it's from a same-sex or opposite-sex couple), it's for stats and the pride of seeing this generation's hard work pay off in the next generation. So at least for me, the possibility of adoption wouldn't solve things.

Lionel
#34199

Posted 2022-02-24 10:03:09

#673977

That's very well put @Lionel, and is exactly my reasoning for wanting something outside of adoption for my wolves. Stats and genetics are an important part of the game, and adoption doesn't cover that. The idea of letting my same sex pairbonds have pups together and see their lines directly continue is very appealing to me as well.
I think these are separate ideas that are both important, but cover different problems and needs.

Ghost
#49933

Posted 2022-03-02 10:50:43 (edited)

#681858

Sorry, gotta oppose this. This might be a game, but the idea of a male/male or female/female having biological pups with each other is just way beyond levels of being realistic. As well as what to determine which female would even be pregnant? And obviously it can't be done for males at all. I'm of course not opposed to wolves in same sex pairing (I have one myself in fact), but it should be kept to pup adoption or one female in the pair breeding with a male for the female/female pair to "adopt". Let's not get ridiculous, now.

Alyssa
#54713

Same Sex Breeding Item

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