Same Sex Breeding Item
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Posted 2022-06-12 08:56:56
I'm not okay with conceding this being an event item that's only available for certain periods though. There is no justification to have it function that way, the only thing it does is make it harder for same-sex pairings to breed and additionally discourage the practice because when something is rare, it also inevitably becomes expensive. Fewer people would have access to it. The very point of suggestions like these is inclusion; I strongly feel that making it harder to obtain these items goes against the spirit of it. Make it cost 10GC, I don't care, but it should be available year-round. |
 Flower #3196 |
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Posted 2022-06-12 08:58:50
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 Closed Account #13864 |
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Posted 2022-06-12 09:00:11 (edited)
Edit: @ Hirschfleisch - That was my thought process too! I'm not the biggest fan of the green applicators and bases, so I'd care SO MUCH more about the event if I could also get these same sex breeding items for cheap and dodge any GC price. |
 Ghost #49933 |
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Posted 2022-06-12 09:05:40
This being available through the event and the grove is absolutely fine. I understood it as solely being an event item and I hate the idea of that, no other breeding item (that I know of) functions that way and it plainly feels dirty to limit access to something like this. I very much like the suggestion but it's because I like it that I really want for it to be accessible. It should not be a thing you can only get for a month or a few weeks out of an entire year. You could change entire generations of wolves before finally getting the item that way. |
Flower #3196 |
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Posted 2022-06-12 09:12:25
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Ghost #49933 |
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Posted 2022-06-12 09:24:35
Still very excited to see this implemented, just evidently too much so. |
Flower #3196 |
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Posted 2022-06-12 09:29:24 (edited)
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Ghost #49933 |
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Posted 2022-06-12 09:52:07
@Curio I also like the idea of the items covering infertile (and perhaps even elderly?) pair bonds. For simplicity sake the description could, instead of same-sex, be something along the lines of "Used to obtain pups from a pairbond who cannot naturally bear puppies"? Extending it's reach to infertile female. Like I said above maybe even extending to elderly female - perhaps to keep it fair being elderly females who have no living offspring or something? Then again, would extending this to infertile females cause fertility raising items to become obsolete? Or would this just have to serve as Wolvden's more complex version of a Black Stallion (Item on LD used to guarantee a pregnancy on a female's first try. It's rare from the lottery or an event shop item) to avoid that. |
 Lily (GH!) #3016 |
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Posted 2022-06-23 11:56:57 (edited)
So if i bring up something that's already been mentioned or resolved, that's probably why, sorry about that lol My first issue, is the complexity of it. I know Wolvden and Lioden are mainly breeding sims, and its the main feature, but one of the reasons i left lioden was because it just got too complicated. too many new features they added everywhere trying to make everyone happy. Thats fine for lioden, where the gameplay overall is much easier than over here, but on Wolvden, it was made to have a much harder play style than LD. It would be hard for new players starting out on a game that has both hard gameplay, and complicated mechanics they have to learn if they even want to play successfully. Right now they currently have to learn about the features behind things like breeding males, leads, pairbonds, adopting, breeding items, and all the limitations and restrictions for each. And that's not even touching actual breeding as far as genetics; with bases, markings, mutations, stats, etc. it would be a lot to pick up for new players already and might deter potential interest in the game, especially by adding more features. Now I'm not saying that adding this will totally mess up the breeding mechanics here, but that if they added it, when there were alternatives already implemented in the game, then that opens the door to even more suggestions and ideas the devs cant logically reject. (such as people wondering why can they add this suggested mechanic, but not this and that suggested feature if that makes sense) (also There's a little paragraph of alternative gameplay below :3) That covers the gameplay, but now there's the coding issue. Now i dont know much of anything about coding, this is just my impression of what it would be like, so take it with a grain of salt. Not only would you need to keep the mechanic that allows mXf breeding, you also need to rework/recode it to allow mXm and fXf breeding possible. you would have to find a code that makes every wolf in WD capable with breeding to any other wolf. On top of the coding tweaks needed for the family trees and labeling changes and whatnot. The generation calculator just added was a super simple mechanic, but as we saw, it was extremely buggy because of the shear number of wolves it had to work with. I do think this is possible, but it might require having to either totally rehaul the current breeding coding in place, or add a whole new set of coding that's compatible with the old coding. Either way, it sounds like a ton of work for the devs who already are working hard, and it would be prone to lots of bugs. And The suggestion about the mXm pairs needing a surrogate, this is just more coding that would need to be worked. Coding for a female wolf to still technically be pregnant and nursing but coding the resulting pups to take the genetics of two other unrelated wolves. This also might be an issue, but for all i know, might be simple coding wise, Idk :P. The main reason for adding this feature is seeing potential outcomes of same sex pairs, actually having blood children of theirs, and not having to choose between breeding projects and lore. What might be an issue is, In a different sex pair, you get around 7 breedings between them through an average females life, several attempts to get the desired kids. For the item you suggested, same sex pairbonds can only use this item once. I do agree with this limit to once per pair, but What if you sink the 10-15 GC needed for this item to breed them together, only to get a lone pup? Or if they were both special, but their pups all end up being T1s, or even if all the pups just die because of low survival. They only have one chance to get a good litter with the desired pup, and there's still tons of factors that could mess with this. It would be unrealistic and unfair to implement failsafes into using this item strictly for same sex pairs, but not for different sex pairs. And if people do end up getting bad pups, they will feel the need to invest more GC fixing up this pup because they've already sunk a lot of GC into it which might leave more people unsatisfied than happy with the outcomes. Some alternatives are here- A scrying stone update might be a help to the problem. If you could scry same sex pairs and get basically sample kids out of a pair, they could still be useful. In lore, even if they dont actually have kids, you can add some in lore and use some examples from scry to show what they look like. You know these would be actual potential outcomes of the twos kids and would help with any realism, plus they would still be there for lore, they just dont actually have any in the game. As far as adoption goes, i dont see much of an issue. You pay max of 20 SC per pup, and unlike breeding, where its luck of the dice on what you get, you literally get to browse and choose the exact desired pup that would fit into what you need for this family. And dont forget, pairbonds can choose a pup every single day. An average wolf lives for almost 200 days. That's more than enough time to find and pick the perfect kid from the enclave. And despite being adopted, they still show up on the adopted parents family tree, and vice versa. It still displays as their kid. The only downside would be if this particular pair was a stat project pair, and finding pups with matching stats would be incredibly hard, if at all possible, as enclave pups all generally have very low stats. Also a side note, i know you probably didnt mean it, but listing one of the reasons to add this is so same sex pairs have blood children rather than adopted ones can come off as really hurtful. Making it seem like just because the pup was adopted rather than an actual Child of theirs, they are automatically deemed lesser, and how actual adopted people here might feel about that. That's just what i felt when reading that statement even if you most likely didn't mean it  One of the last things i saw while reading this, was you also not wanting to choose between lore and breeding. It is an option to keep one of the pair as the opposite sex for breeding purposes, but lore-wise still keeping them as your desired gender. The good thing about wolvden is there isnt any sexual dimorphism in the adult art. Males and females look exactly the same, which means people depend on looking at their info page to tell the gender. Its just as easy to put in the footnote or bio page their gender and pronouns to avoid confusion. This is what i do with my same sex pairs i planned on breeding, adding a note to their bios, that they are 'this gender for lore' and i get to be creative story wise with how they managed to have biological pups (digging into the supernatural side for some stories) there really isnt any limit to what you can do with the lore and story telling, and most of the time a whole new breeding mechanic isn't needed for some of it. But if this still doesn't work out too well with you, maybe later on, if they do add art for males and females, you can always go the lioden route, with a lab test frog that displays the lion as the opposite gender. Coding wise they are still a set gender, but, visually and story wise, they are whatever you want them to be and they can still have biological cubs. Overall i just feel this would be an unnecessary feature with the amount of work it would require and there already being alternatives. I know some people still wont be happy with just alternatives but its impossible for everyone to be 100% happy with the way anything is. This just seems like the best option for the game imo. heres just my two cents, feel free to ignore it, add to it, or bring up anything I didn't get right. Sorry for the long message lol :P |
 AngryTiger-[Item_Hoarder] #10140 |
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Posted 2022-06-23 15:05:18
I do sorta wish we could throw out the argument of "it's too much work for coders." not just directing this at you, @angrytiger, since it's been brought up several times. if something isn't feasible with the current code or 'too much work' or simply not something to prioritize, that's fine. however, for a general user, especially ones that don't have any coding experience (with or without Wolvden's coding)… that's not really something we should assume? like, that's just not our judgement to make and I think staff is perfectly capable of deciding that for themselves. we don't need to be arguing amongst each other about whether or not staff have time for something. like, that's just not relevant to us at all or the discussion at hand. otherwise, I do see what you mean about implying adopting isn't good enough. however, irl queer couples have bio kids (or the closest approximation they can manage) all the time. are you saying that they are also saying adoption is the lesser option? especially considering this is a fantasy universe, why NOT allow same-sex breeding? the adoption feature is AWESOME and I LOVE that staff included it, but for lore reasons, have a huge banner on the family page saying "ADOPTED BY X AND Y" just doesn't hit the same. same with the "just pretend one wolf is a different sex" argument tbh. like, yeah obviously, it's possible and people do that. but again, having the site straight-up misgender your wolf in every notification just feels weird. if you're a lore-heavy pack then of course you'd rather actually have a same sex pair. (but, as an aside, I do think a pronoun toggle could have a similar effect at least and be a nice compromise) okay I think that was all my thoughts fhfjfj |
Hawkins #11604 |