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Deaf Wolves Should Have Any Role

Posted 2023-02-18 10:56:18
#958442
What are albinism and melanism if not exactly that? They are mutations, they have no affect on your wolves other than appearance, and people still like to collect them. I would like deafness/blindness to be met with the same lack of stigma.
Zea
#27549
Posted 2023-02-18 11:54:32
#958463
Albinism, melanism, and piebald are appearance mutations, that typically have no impact on the animal(albinism being the exception in some species). Blindness and deafness are not appearance mutations, but disabling ones, and have real impacts on wolves that make them less adaptable to survive but are not in of themselves lethal. Of course, this game plays it fast and loose when it comes to realism, so any introduction of realism is something I prefer.
Jusdreiin
#2445
Posted 2023-03-01 05:12:38
#967026
The following is to address certain comments made on this post in an informative way based on my own findings relating to biology and similar sciences that I feel largely misunderstand how nature functions as a concept, the following is an explanation and comparison to albinism and the disabilities in the discussion and a break down on aspects of the natural world and, most importantly, how disabled animals can survive in nature (even predatory animals like wolves) and how it's largely a misconception that things like blindness and deafness only ever result in negative outcomes for the individual animal and how even within social groups disabled animals are a liability for the overall survival of a group. There is a nuance to discussion of mutations and how they function in nature, I just wanna educate those who do not understand that nuance and complexity. It's not my intention to seem aggressive or standoffish, so if that is what you read from this, I'm sorry, I am just somewhat tired myself of seeing this argument in regards to disability in nature, and I don't blame anyone for thinking this is the truth because I definitely thought that once, but the argument itself is at best outdated and at worst not concurrent with modern science on the subject.

Albinism often has large impacts on the effected individuals in nature, most animals born outside of largely white environments like the arctic will stick out like a sore thumb due to the lack of pigmentation, making them easy prey even as predators. The lack of pigment in the eyes causes visual impairment, often partial blindness, and that same lack of pigmentation in the skin and hair makes albino individuals susceptible to skin diseases like skin cancer, this mutation is only inherently harmless to species that is heavily nocturnal or who's environment lacks sunlight of any kind, that also additionally does not rely on eyesight. Melanism in truth does not have any impairments to my knowledge, and piebaldism carries similar aspects in albinism in regards to how well an individual can blend in with their surroundings. Based on this logic, albinistic wolves in game should not be able to survive half as long as they do or also have similar cuts on gameplay due to the affects of albinism on an a terrestrial mammalian predator species, that though nocturne would still likely be highly susceptible to the aforementioned skin diseases. That's not to say albino animals cannot reach the age of maturity in their species or even do what they do in game — in fact there are likely multiple different instances of albino animals reaching full maturity and seemingly doing decent for themselves; but this also goes for the blind and deaf.

regarding the deaf and blind in nature; to an extent it's true that some individuals will not survive, but the chances for individuals within a social group not only to survive whilst being disabled, but actively partake in group activities becomes higher, and wolves are a social species that thrive together. Wolvden is already playing with unrealistic concepts such as medicinal practices which of course, wolves cannot do irl, and anthropomorphizing these animals to human level behaviors, it's not unrealistic based on the site lore that the blind and deaf could, within their social structures, find ways to pursue everyday tasks, especially with the added note of medical care being a thing here, which already cancels out concepts of realism alone. Even without anthropomorphism in mind, plenty of social species have not only cared for their disabled members, but those members will also participate in group activities such as hunting, foraging, caring for young, etc. in fact, a distant relative to wolves does this, African spotted wild dogs are well known for their high intelligence and complex social structures, relating to the topic at hand AWDs take care of their disabled pack members and even have them participate in hunts. These are animals with an 80% success rate in hunting, likely one of the smartest canids we know of, it wouldn't be exaggerative to compare wolvden wolf intelligence to their distant relatives based on what's already shown. Realism in regards to nature does not inherently mean that the disabled will always be unable to catch up to others in their species - sometimes animals who lack a limb or sense or whatever may be will adapt to their surroundings and thrive, and in regards to a social group like the wolves in game have, that chance is heightened by the concept of a larger support system for the individual to fall back on, ensuring a higher chance of survival and success. Sometimes, initially detrimental mutations like this may only further specialize an animal, heightening other senses or discarding one trait for a completely different one which may become beneficial, aka one of the many ways evolution occurs in several different species, often starting on an individual level and quickly spreading the more these traits become important/preferred.

Ted talk aside, support.
Thornyboy
#2169
Posted 2023-03-01 16:29:50
#967626
@Thornyboy
Albinism in itself is not disabling. However, the side effects of albinism can and do impact the survival of the animal. Albino wolves could also have an advantage during winter in snowy areas. If they wanted to add the detrimental impacts you mentioned for albinism, I would fully support it. It would add depth, danger, and realism to the game.
Jusdreiin
#2445
Posted 2023-03-01 18:19:06
#967680
@Jusdreiin I did a quick search and some further research and at least regarding the affects on humans (which are synonymous with other mammalians), Albinism is qualified as a disability due to the visual impairment which is consistent, though varies through type, of which there are four types currently recognized in humans. Since the visual affects would still be an aspect in these wolves due to it affecting the same areas in the body (the retina and issues regarding nerve connection between the eyes and brain) I'd say that in our case it is a disability as it impairs the animals senses. I would also be fine with some small penalties for albinism to add a sense of realism in acknowledging the issues that come with the condition, but also not removing them from things like hunting and scouting completely.
Thornyboy
#2169
Posted 2023-06-29 04:22:31
#1034306
I'm voting support but I'm partly opposed to this. This can be seen from two points of view.

One, we are taking realism seriously and understand that a deaf wolf will not have a lifespan as long and healthy as an able wolf because yes, a good taken care of deaf/blind/otherwise disabled animal can live a fulfilling life, but this requires adaptations that are not available first hand in the wild. Mothers abandon sick pups, hurt pack mates are left behind, deaf wolves hunt less productively than hearing ones and blind animals do not survive period. I see people saying this like "but disabled humans can do this and that!!" and you are completely right on that. If we were playing Personden I would be agreeing with you but a deaf wolf does not communicate efficiently enough with its packmates to be helpful in a hunt. Now I would absolutely be on board to be able to let them participate in all these different activities with added nerfs that have been commented in this thread before, hence why I'm hitting support, but if we want to be realistic a disabled wolf should not do as good or be able to do the same actions an able wolf would. Exclusively because the adaptations that would allow it to do them are supposed to not exist here.

Now, on the other hand, wolvden is not realistic. We have blue glowing animals and aliens and the critters are your friends and you can turn a biheaded puppy into a healthy pup buying stuff from a talking raccoon. So there is no reason at all to "gatekeep" these roles from disabled wolves. Adaptations do not clash with the spirit or lore of the game, our wolves are sentient and rational and deaf wolves gathering herbs is something perfectly plausible in universe.

So yeah, mixed options. I am on board with letting them be more playable (at the end that's what the wolves are for, to play with. Reminder this a game.) but I completely understand and agree with the person that commented about what's the point to add disabling mutations if they are not going to actually be disabling.

As a side note albinism does cause visual impairments. A more correct (though never entirely accurate, as these are different species) comparison would be made with the albinism existing in dogs. This is an excerpt from OMIA regarding the clinical signs of albinism:
Dogs with oculocutaneous albinism type IV have white (cream) coat coloration, blue eyes (iris), pink nose and lips, hypopigmented adnexal structures (eyelid margins, nictitating membrane margins, and cilia), and hypopigmented retinal pigment epithelium and choroid (Winkler et al., 2014). Dogs may also present with photophobia and vision defects (Winkler et al., 2014). Additionally, exposure of the hypopigmented skin to ultraviolet radiation may result in cutaneous melanocytic neoplasms and/or ocular masses (Caduff et al., 2017; Winkler et al., 2014).

IT thanks DVM student Arpan Mann, who provided the basis of this contribution in May 2023.
puppy
#6381
Posted 2023-07-17 08:47:08
#1041739
I love anything with deafness, because same!  HoH (deaf)!  I guess to tack onto all of this, with the new relationship stats, Some interactions, rather than talking, these wolves can wag tails, pin ears back, or cuddle up to the lead wolf, depending on their personality.  :) 		TowardstheEnd
#33070
Posted 2023-08-11 15:28:43
#1051807
Yeah I was shocked deaf and blind wolves aren't allowed roles, I'm surprised there wasn't more backlash about it being unintentionally ableist. My deaf friends are more capable at a lot of tasks than I am! xD 		Daewnie
#69937
Posted 2023-10-04 20:51:05
#1074322
I want there to be drawbacks to disabled wolves but I absolutely think people should be able to have disabled pack leaders/studs/role doers. It's extremely surprising that Wolvden is full of a lot of neurodivergent people, especially those with health issues, but for some reason there's no mute wolves and deaf/blind wolves are limited? Like they have the ability to make a cool exploration scene with limited vision for blind wolves but they've banned it from their suggestion guide. I feel sad for all the HOH (hard of hearing) and partially blind players :/. 		Daewnie
#69937
Posted 2023-10-05 11:59:27 (edited)
#1074553
I disagree about having any role. As a disabled person (vision impaired, chronic pain, several other chronic conditions, a small pharmacy in my bag at all times) there are few depictions of disabilities that bother me more than them not being disabling. More often than not it just feels like the 'woke' version of 'you could get over your disability if you really tried'. I absolutely don't think blind or deaf wolves should be able to hunt. Wolf packs rely heavily on communicating with each other during hunts, so being deaf would prevent that, and while blind people/animals can get around pretty darn well (I used to live with a very smart blind dog) they don't get around so well that they'd be able to avoid slamming into a tree or getting smashed by a moose during a hunt. It's a disability. It disables you from doing some things.

On the other hand, some roles I could see being an option with penalties. A blind wolf could probably be a herbalist by relying on scent, perhaps with a penalty to time needed, as they'd have to be extra careful. Though since it looks like the devs are considering an overhaul to the herbalism system they'd probably want to work out the kinks in that before tweaking blind wolves accordingly. Blind and deaf wolves could probably still pupsit, with either a penalty to protection given or a lower limit to number of pups they could protect, as they'd only be able to keep an eye or an ear out, rather than both.

As for leads, that's far enough into role-playing territory that I could go either way. I think the biggest obstacle there would be all the tweaks the devs would have to make to make it an immersive experience, rather than just a box on the details page.
HollowWorld7
#13716
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