The Stat Ceiling Is Still There, Still Kinda Low, And Still A Problem
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The Stat Ceiling Is Still There, Still Kinda Low, And Still A Problem
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Posted 2023-01-16 14:50:21
RavenWalker, at the time of breeding, had over four thousand stats. Several of his mates had over one thousand. That is over five thousand combined stats, and in many places, nearly 5100. Now, assuming that stats follow a reasonable model, the usual method of 20% of the parent stats should apply, yes? And at least a few of these pairings should have resulted in pups over 1,000 stats, no? Wrong. The highest RavenWalker pup was this, at 992 stats, nearly 30 points below the anticipated 1019.6 from parent stats. At this point in the stat ceiling, 30 points is a huge difference. Similar litters had pups of over 900 stats as well, but were from parents of combined stats usually around 1000 lower. https://www.wolvden.com/wolf/6049345 This is, of course, still the highest stat pup ever bred in game, but considering that the highest stat wolf ever made in the game and one of the highest stat pack member G1s produced a pup below 1,000 stats.... what does that say for the future of Wolvden? I assume that the incredibly low stat ceiling was intended as an overcorrection from "too high" stats of Lioden. However, this system as we have it now overly punishes any player who decides to "push" their lead as high as they can take them- something that requires guarana, which requires GC, which is a reliable source of income for the game. Mavric herself has spent quite a bit of money on Wolvden building up RavenWalker to the height he's achieved. What does it say about the future of Wolvden being able to keep its playerbase if the game so violently nerfs her project pups? This system also heavily punishes high generation breeders. The stat ceiling is so heavy that if you want to ever get above a certain stat threshold, you have to breed to a pushed lead, rather than painstakingly building up multiple generations of hunters. Functionally speaking, with the stat ceiling as heavy and low as it is, there's really no point breeding in-pack beyond Gen 3. Again, what does that say about the future of the game if high generation breeders are nerfed so heavily by the low stat curve? |
 orderup #35470 |
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Posted 2023-01-16 14:56:39
I know I personally will probably never make another dog like this simply because what's the point? The smarts alone on my best litters was somewhere around 16 to 17% carryover rate to the pups, which absolutely crushed me. While yes they were some of the chonkiest puppies ever, they were painfully low stated. |
 Mavric #33260 |
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Posted 2023-01-16 15:19:35
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 Zea #27549 |
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Posted 2023-01-17 16:40:01
I was honestly surprised when RavenWalker's pups were born. I'd been watching his stats climb to astronomical levels and thought for sure that work would really show in the pups - but then they were all under 1000 stats. It's still quite impressive in terms of them being higher stat than any pups born before then, but the stat difference did not reflect the incredible amount of work and money put into getting their parents to the stats they had. Without grinding like Mavric did, a lot of those pups will likely hit around 1400-2000 stats by their death (~1400 by level up alone, and then a widely variable amount from random stats gained each day). Nothing to scoff at, but… it's actually not THAT impressive a number considering their parents' combined stats. And it makes someone kind of wonder what's the point of trying for stats if it REALLY only ever heavily impacts the wolf you're grinding for, and the pups lose so much of that work? Like was mentioned before, it's not really worth it to breed beyond G4-ish when it comes to stats, because the stat gain for subsequent generations pups nearly grinds to a halt. Without extreme grinding every generation then on out, wolves that far along will generally only ever make pups with stats comparable to what they themselves were born with, effectively creating a cap on stats. And for pups like RavenWalker's? They almost certainly will not be producing 900+ stat pups. THEIR pups will almost certainly be born with significantly lower stats than they themselves were (unless their owner puts in some SERIOUS work and funds). And in a game that really heavily revolves around The Next Generation of Wolves (hence why we breed them, and why our wolves die. You don't get to just keep the one really nice wolf in a functional way forever. You make heirs), it seems strange that long lineages don't REALLY keep on getting better by virtue of being long and lots of time spent breeding wolf after wolf after wolf. That just feels… disappointing really. |
 Chirp #2670 |
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Posted 2023-01-17 17:23:37
I'd also like to address the potentiality that the stat ceiling is supposed to even out the playing field a bit, and why I disagree with that reasoning. I'm coming at this from the angle of, I have a leaderboard lead wolf. The RavenWalker pups, with the players who grind them, are coming in quickly behind my lead and will soon overtake her stat-wise. This would have happened even sooner if they were born with even higher stats. I haven't had the time or money to guarana grind like some other players. However, as orderup mentioned, RavenWalker pups often had over 5000 combined parent stats at the time of breeding. My current lead's parents had about 3300 combined stats at the time of breeding. Of course the RavenWalker pups have higher stats--and they should have had much higher stats than what they were actually born with, because the stat difference between 3300 and 5000 is massive. It's not unfair towards me that someone else has a higher stat wolf, and that that wolf breeds high stat puppies. So much work and dedication and money went into RavenWalker, and that should be something that's not punished by the game's stat ceiling. |
 Xeva #16394 |
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Posted 2023-01-18 22:56:16 (edited)
Theres a heavy discrimination against high gen wolves. Its so bad that if you have higher than Gen 7, might as well chase it. Studs above 5th gen are passed over for low gen NBW studs. Why bother breeding stats if after gen 3 their value drops off. You get 6 months with a stud and then thats it, his potential is gone, the effort is gone, theres no point in continuing his breeding line as the higher the gen, the less value overall, and forget value in the pups as the stat rolls suck. I think stats would be in a better position if the the whole "low gen" crowd backed off too. If heritage wiped after page 2 (or something), it might help higher stat breeders in the face of "value for effort". I want to breed higher stat wolves, but if I do, I have to dedicate a HUGE amount of time and money into the game, which I have neither. To fund such a project, being able to sell high stat pups and stud is a must along side paying for energy boosts to gain stats. Or I have to buy a high stat heir from someone who has one, and even then, I feel their efforts are drained away with the huge stat gap in pups vs parents. Then any pup subsequently bought requires the same effort, but as the generations increase, the value declines, so why bother? Its like a double nerf. I had a conversation with someone who had a very high stat low gen stud. I asked if they would do it all again. They said no. They told me how they spent a ton of money on guarana, but in the end did not get a return on the value for the time and effort put in. They told me they would not be doing it again because it totally burned them out. I dont blame them. I started out with my current boy with the intention of blowing him up with guarana and breeding him to other high stat wolves, but after dealing with "BUt itS HigH GEn!" Ive chased so many 3rd gen 600+ stat pups, even fully trained. No one wants them. I said "Screw this." Am I getting a return on my boy? Nope, not as much as I'd like and Ive had to come to accept that. I love my boy, but Im not going to burn out my enjoyment and get nerfed stat wise and slammed with prejudice due to the high gen issue. The current system and social bias requires someone to get a TIII or T* NBW (Or customize one) pound out loads of time and money to get it to high stat, then spend a wolf's lifetime training up NBWs to breed to, high enough to breed 2nd gen high stat pups, sell them, then start over because people whine about high gen wolves. If the stat gain was in a better place, I would actually be happy to buy GC to pump my boy up. If the "low gen" crowd would back off, I'd continue that trend with subsequent generations. I LIKE having a long gen, for lore and for personal pride as well as effort. I really want to breed a fancy high stat stud to continue on the line, but why bother? Wolveden isnt a breeding simulator any more. Its an NBW breeding simulator. Breaking the stat cap would help if the players to quit being prejudice about heritage. I think stats and heritage discrimination goes hand in hand under the current layout. TLDR: Fix the stat gain/inheritance issues and fix the "high gen" discrimination. Edit: one thing with gaining stats that burns my biscuits is I spent a WHOLE day burning energy bars, battling everything above lvl 12+ and got 0 stat gains. I battled at least 30 NPCs (Some energy bars had 0 encounters). At level 20 thats absurd. All I got was XP gains which is a complete waste at level 20. That should be like the Lioden impression bar, if we can't get stats via battles at least give is a +1 to every stat when the xp bar fills past level 20. |
 Mustang 🐎 #3314 |
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Posted 2023-01-22 14:42:16
For me the biggest issue is, stats don't mean anything? I'm overflowing with food, so it doesn't make a difference on the pack's survival. Best stats= most money spent. I can try to keep up, but I have a strict rule against spending real money. AND if by some miracle I get someone on the leaderboards I won't be informed. I'll probably never know. In the last breeding sim game I played there were awards to let you know how many days you got someone on the leader boards. No in-game acknowledgement= less incentive to breed for stats. I spend long periods forgetting the leaderboard exists. I think a fun fix would be some way to make stats matter more for each individual, like how you can pick a fighting style for your lead. I breed leads for strength, get 2 bleeds, and take damage while I wait for a bleed out. If I wanted I could switch over to breeding for speed/agility and focus on a minimal-damage fight style. Maybe if stats helped you customize each wolf's "style" it would give it some meaning beyond leaderboard breeding. |
 🍂 Leonca 🐆 #54339 |
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Posted 2023-02-09 01:19:46 (edited)
But yeah it's pretty demoralizing for stat breeders once they reach a certain gen, only to see their hard work (and often coins), just sorta thrown back at them. Edit: Here's the bug report for anyone who hasn't seen it yet link |
 🌵NIB Brachy Breeder🌵 #5084 |
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Posted 2023-02-17 08:12:48
Someone also needs to buy the wolves with longer generations for the market to work in the first place. If there isn't a market for them, well the low gen market will also suffer from it. Wanting lower lines is more understandeable on the sister site because you need to click through their entire lineage to find out if they are inbreed or not, but wolvden calculates that for you atleast. You'd still have some of the incentive to have lower wolves as there is less of a chance another wolf is related to your wolf, but I think it lessens it somewhat even in clean breeding lines. Ideally, both markets along with the visual market should exist in balance for both of them to thrive. The complete dolinatiom for either doesn't really do well. Don't terribly care for stats, but there being a ridicolous cap is both detriment to others joy and consequently also mine somewhere. |
 Datrandomcat #11515 |
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Posted 2023-02-22 06:00:26
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 SpeedyFoxDraws #1515 |