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please don’t integrate karma! (addendum: at least not how exists in LD)

Posted 2022-11-06 01:00:24 (edited)
#873222
@ BIG RED RAT
you have a good point. Karma might help explore become more exciting BUT ONLY ith some serious changes.
However, judging by Lioden karma, it might need improvements. For example, this encounter (Thanks Sunnyy for image):

both of those options are "bad". Roaring is not a "good" thing, and yet it gives you karma.  If anything, it should be the other way around, since killing it would put it out of it's misery.
And what about starving packs that need to kill in explore for food?
Also, karma in Lioden, as I've heard (from people on this thread and google), is very black and white. One thing is good, another is evil. That should have some modifications as well.
Karma should just have a toggle in your account settings.
not trying to start an argument just pointing these things out
also-prev post by me-
half-ish support? (I think some changes should be made I guess?)
I feel like I myself already make the "good" choices in game, and karma would help me a lot. However, other players who prefer to choose the "aggressive" options may think karma is not a good idea.

Karma should have it's own "event" of some sort, just a week/a few days where it is turned on, and then off for some time, so players don't feel pressured to make "good" choices in explore constantly.

Also, in some explore encounters, both options are bad, or there is only one, for example, the lunar squirrel encounter. You only have one choice: attempt to trick the squirrel into trusting you so you can eat it, or the beaver encounter, where you  can either scare the beaver or kill it. If the player wanted good karma, they would have to waste precious energy/lunar essence skipping similar encounters.
All encounters should have a "good" option and a "bad" option. At least this way, if karma is integrated, players can actually do what they want, not be forced to select a bad option or waste energy.

Karma should be subtle, not very noticeable, just occasionally a player gets a better reward, or worse outcome than expected. This would also have less of an impact on newer players who do not know what they are doing. They may select "bad" options constantly, unaware, and doom their pack to dire consequences, maybe even so much that they quit Wolvden!

About newer players: Maybe karma would be unlocked once a player has been in-game for 30 rollovers. This would allow them to learn about the game and get a steady pack and resource supplies before being introduced to karma.

Relating to that, some players may need the things they get from "bad" options for survival, such as in winter, when food is scarce and many packs survive on food gained from explore encounters. If they did this over and over again, bad karma may remove the food, and thus ruin the game for the players.

Karma would be even better if "bad" karma was removed completely! Instead of good option=good outcome, bad option=bad outcome, it could be good option=good outcome, bad option=no change.

Karma could be switched off during events so players don't feel pressured to make a "good" decision as opposed to making a "bad" decision that would give them much more, for example giving up your pups for a clover/moss base applicator in coigreach.

Karma could appear as an optional setting in a player's profile, able to be switched on and off at any time. The player would be able to control it at leisure. Switching it on when they want a nice surprise, and switching it off when they need "bad" encounters for resources/survival.

In short, karma can be good, but it pressures players to do things they don't want to do at times, so it should have its own time for activation. It should be more subtle, and karma would be better if "bad" karma was removed! Karma should also be implemented as an option setting in a player's profile.
(sorry very long and a lot of information)

✨starthealphawolf💫
#74503
Posted 2022-11-06 03:29:50
#873255
@sunny--

wow that's a really poorly written encounter. The "good" karma option doesn't even reveal that the animal is actually choking. You're left wondering how water is supposed to help a sick animal. The one thing i heavily dislike about the good karma options is that it usually feels random happenstance. You roar and the antelope just *so happens* to stumble to some water and that maybe that's a good thing. Your lion doesn't think "Oh it appears to be choking, let me help it. There's water nearby".  Choosing the option for your playable lion to hunt (a classic rp element to being any predator) as bad is such a poor decision to.

Like I've said, killing for sport is different than killing for food. If you want there to be killing options, dont play it as, for example "heres a good opportunity for a meal". Play it as "I'm not hungry, and i'm bored, i'll just kill it for pleasure". There is a big difference and it frankly comes down to poor writing.

I really really hope WD improves the karma system.

and to comment on what @BigRedRat -- Karma can be added, and can make explore more fun. That's not the issue. It's poorly written. The issue is that the lions *are* hunting for food in some instances and its deemed as bad. The lion isn't written as evil, its written as a lion and labeled as evil. That's the problem people want to avoid with this site.
Remmie
#8429
Posted 2022-11-06 03:54:59
#873266
@BigRedRat, its not about "more fun" its about balance and solid encounters, not ambiguous encounters with no clear path of good or bad.

I hate encounters that shove me into surprise battles, I hate encounters that no matter what I choose, I get only a bad outcome regardless of the choice.  "Oh, well just skip those!" Well, doesnt that defeat the purpose of making explore more dynamic and interesting?  If skipping encounters is the only solution, that is not a solution. 

Constant negative interactions, whether karma or battles or -hp, is not fun, not dynamic, non-productive, non-engaging.  Its off-putting and detracts from the overall enjoyment.

The beef people have with the karma system is poor balancing which leads to an unenjoyable experience.
Mustang 🐎
#3314
Posted 2022-11-08 12:43:55
#875230
Honestly, all I'm going to say about the encounter is this: Lioden is a game where heaven and hell come to earth. I dont think the encounter is written particularly well, but simultaneously, falling back on "realism" as an argument feels a bit ridiculous because this is the same game where there are literal godly beings running around.

That's my entire beef with the realism argument, and it carries over to Wolvden too. You're not playing a super intense realistic wolf sim.
This is a point I'm going to drop because its very clear to me it's an issue of us seeing differently on this.

But more importantly:

Badly written encounters can always be changed. As someone who has done design work for games, which has included changing bad encounters or balance issues, these are things that can be altered, touched up. That linked encounter could literally be made acceptable by adding a single sentence indicating you don't know why the thing is acting this way, and then the evil option could be changed from killing it to killing it sadistically, and added as a literal third option. Stuff like that. Theres a more solid way to do it I'm sure but I'll be real: I'm not putting in more than a minute at most of thinking on a fix in this context lol

@Mustang this is literally just a fixable issue of implementation. Imo, a good example of what could be done with a karma encounter is the wisp approach from this event: you can approach them, but you have a random consequence. In this way there's always incentive but also always risk, which makes each encounter with the wisps interesting.

In looking at Lioden and Wolvden encounters, it's pretty clear that WD relies on a pool of outcomes much more than LD does. I feel like its safe to assume this will carry over to karma implementation.
BIG RED RAT
#41885
Posted 2022-11-08 13:13:03
#875242
for me, it's less abouy poorly written encounters and more about the added pressure of needing to consider karma before choosing the path you take. in coigreach, the encounter with the beast of dean allows you to either give it a healing salve or kill it — that's a pretty blatantly black-and-white encounter with clear implications of what's supposed to be considered "good" and "evil" choices. as a do-gooder player, i will always prefer to choose yhe "good" outcomes, but in this instance killing the beast gives me the outcome i prefer at the moment. it's not that it's badly written (at least i don't think so?) or unbalanced, just that the "evil" choice gives me quartz chunks which i prefer over extra energy. if karma was in place, i would feel compelled to choose the good option regardless of the prize at the end of the encounter. you could say, "just take the L on that encounter, get a quick dip in your karma score, and build it back up with the other encounters!" but that's exactly the problem — i'm a perfectionist and if i'm gonna have a score in something i want it to be high as possible and i don't wanna have to choose between a high score or valuable loot.

next, i think you may be reading too far into what we're trying to say by "realism". you're right, neither LD or WD are particularly realistic survival sims. but that doesn't change the fact that it would feel a little silly to call a wolf "evil" for taking an opportunity to kill an animal to feed itself or it's pack. our wolves are already out there killing animals every day in hunts. our lead attacks and either kills or severely wounds random hostile animals in explore. it's not about realism at this point, it's about letting predators be predators without needing to consider how "good" or "evil" it makes them, 

i'm not fully against integrating karma as a concept. i think it could be designed in a really fun and engaging way, but i also think it could be an added hassle that is entirely unnecessary and could potentially detract from the game as a whole for many of us. i would love to have karma integrated in a clever, well-balanced way that doesn't affect the loot you want out of encounters.
Arcadia /hiatus
#1119
Posted 2022-11-08 13:32:57
#875251
You can have the interactions without the karma aspect. If you want options in explore where your wolf can be super evil vs wonderfully good, there can be. And you can get rewards based on what option you took. But there doesn't need to be a counter letting you know if you've been "nice" or not.

I just don't think it's necessary. Keep the interactions, remove the karma.

Idk why it's even called karma when there's nothing else in the game relating to the religion it comes from, nor does the game really use it properly. Seems kind of weird.
Doods
#3294
Posted 2022-11-08 14:18:07
#875287
i didn't even realize karma came from a religion! if it's a matter of appropriation maybe we should rethink using "karma" as a word in the game altogether? but i don't know anything about that religion so i'm not sure if that's an issue worth considering??? maybe i'll look it up
Arcadia /hiatus
#1119
Posted 2022-11-08 14:36:39 (edited)
#875301
The name 'karma' also confused me as well! Altough I'm not a practicioner of any religion, so I obviously cannot speak as an expert. Still, with a former interest in Buddhism, I can tell that it has a lot to do with reincarnation and spiritual growth! Technically, it affects greatly in what way or form one will reincarnate in their next life! It is used in multiple religions, such as Hinduism, Taoism, and Sikhism, and it is very complex and deeply interesting, very much worth looking at it! A lot of things to learn from it. However, as a non-religious person from eastern Europe, I'm not quite sure if it's fully appropriate in a fantasy game about lions? I think the word 'reputation' would be more fitting, as the concept of karma itself doesn't really have a lot to do with how it is played out in a game, especially knowing how much religious meaning it holds :/
𝕽𝖞𝖑𝖎𝖊 🦇
#47026
Posted 2022-11-08 15:26:23
#875397
@In The End

Thank you for that, I fully agree with you. Reputation doesn't have the same implications as karma, and I'd be fine with that change. I still don't think that it should be a visible number, and I don't think it should be as black and white as good and evil.

Someone suggested that it should be based on Romantic, Friendly, Stoic or Aggressive and I think that would be an amazing addition and would be seperate enough from lioden, since they don't want it compared. It would really help to flesh out the four core personalities they already have.
Doods
#3294
Posted 2022-11-08 16:05:45
#875471
I'm okay with it being called reputation, but don want to be labeled "evil" for making decisions a wolf would to survive...
Sunny
#30082
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