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please don’t integrate karma! (addendum: at least not how exists in LD)

Posted 2022-10-21 03:55:01
#859035
Damn guys I ain't even do anything to y'all

Issa joke because of my name pls don't come at me ty

Though, I am indifferent on the subject. I personally don't care if I get called "bad" or "good" per se. Shiet, it's my account, I'll do what I wish. Plus I don't mind playing the bad guy every once in awhile. Though, I do understand not everyone feels this way.
Karma
#75898
Posted 2022-10-21 08:11:26
#859224
No support, sorry!
While I am not at all familiar with Lionden or how karma systems work, if it's anything like Cataclysms event where you had "good" Kinfolk, "evil" Merged and "neutral" Independent and could pick one over the other, sometimes changing sides completely, then I think it can add to immersion and roleplaying. As long as you can go from bad karma to good or vice versa during gameplay, it could be fun.
πŸŽ„π–‹π–”π–’π–”π–—π–Žπ–†π–“πŸŽ„
#51433
Posted 2022-10-21 08:35:56 (edited)
#859249
@51433 - It's not really like the Cataclysms event. Each "side" has different rewards found in explore, but the neutral option gives you very little, and it's really hard to stay neutral, because nearly every encounter choice has karma tied to it. Not only that, but you need to be purely good or evil (or close to it) in order to get the karma rewards.

There are also no quests to increase your standing with one faction, and you can't simultaneously have points in good/evil/neutral. Instead it's a pretty simple number-based system that goes up or down, with positive numbers being good and negative numbers being evil. When you reach certain numbers, extra explore encounters and titles for your main lion are unlocked.

That's ignoring the fact that good and evil are subjective human ideas and on LD they really do reward evil. Example, on Lioden during an event with wildfires you get the option to kill already injured prey in explore, netting you a carcass and evil karma, but if you choose the good option half the time you get nothing. I happen to see choosing the "evil" option in this scenario as a neutral to good thing because the prey would have died slowly anyway.

The reason so many people don't want Lioden style karma is that it's really forced on you whether you like it or not, you essentially have to pick a side, and it's not very well balanced either.
VagueShapes
#828
Posted 2022-10-21 09:36:36
#859288
@VagueShapes thanks for the clarification! You've won me over
πŸŽ„π–‹π–”π–’π–”π–—π–Žπ–†π–“πŸŽ„
#51433
Posted 2022-10-21 11:19:06
#859367
Honestly really disappointed. :/ One of the things I love about Wolvden is there's no karma that dictates how the game deacribes you. In addition, apparently, in Lioden if you want specific nicknames or achievements you have to be an asshole during events. I don't remember where I heard someone say that; I think someone earlier on this thread?
Sunny
#30082
Posted 2022-10-21 11:38:27
#859391
Unpopular opinion; Karma isn't important factor. It's just flavor text.

I'm not quite sure why a Karma system is or was an issue. You, in real life, will be not impacted. You could be an absolute jerk who kicks puppies, and yet play as a saint in-game, or you could be a pretty nice person who'd be a joy to hang out with and yet someone who makes their wolf the most cruel thing around. Besides, if people wanted realism, for example,Β  Wolfquest exists. Perhaps the Isle if that's your cup of tea. In a world of talking, sentient animals who have rudimentary healthcare, the ability to wear illogical decors, and universal language, this game shouldn't be taken seriously for anything involving morals. It should be taken as a silly wolf game.


Okay I needed to get that down because I seriously do not understand why this was ever a topic of debate lol
πŸ”₯Bakedfish🐟
#87424
Posted 2022-10-21 11:52:46
#859402
It's not just flavor text though. The crux of many people's concerns (from what I understand please correct me if I'm wrong) is that it will be balanced like Lioden's karma is balanced ie not balanced at all. Like @VagueShapes said evil is rewarded in Lioden in that you usually get more out of the evil options then the good ones like an extra carcass in an explore encounter which is really unfair to people who want to be good because other then the karma boost there's really no point when you're missing out on food that you might need. People just don't want Wolvden's already punishing gameplay to be made even more punishing by having to worry about what your choice is going to do to your leader's morality vs wanting to have extra food so your wolves don't straight up leave.
Also I'm not sure why you brought up real life. No one said this was impacting their real life we're just voicing our opinions for how to make a system that works for everybody since we're the ones playing the game in the first place.
Yami
#31503
Posted 2022-10-21 11:56:37
#859403
Did you read the original post? This is about the rewards of karma encounters. There's already "flavor text" karma encounters in game (eating the racoon kits, killing animals, etc) but they don't affect the gameplay. The system they're planning on adding will, and we don't want that.
Β·Λ–Λš Rainii ΛšΛ–Β·
#20486
Posted 2022-10-21 12:18:21
#859415
Reason I brought up real life is because there seems to be a bit of an impassioned argument. As if whatever happens in the game matters and affects everyone's lives. But, okay. I can't really counter against an argument like that, and the snippiness really drove the point home. Besides that, yeah, now I can see why people might be a tad upset if Wolvden just copies Lioden's old formula, though. Don't really need to make the game more difficult and have people railroaded into what they do, I suppose.
πŸ”₯Bakedfish🐟
#87424
Posted 2022-10-21 12:18:51 (edited)
#859416
@87424 - I don't really think the argument against a karma system is an argument for realism.

Technically nothing on here impacts you IRL, but people are still allowed to dislike certain aspects because we're playing it for our enjoyment, and if something impedes our enjoyment that matters.

All that aside, these are the reasons I am against implementing an unavoidable karma system:
1. Any way in which the devs implement karma will be based on their personal biases.
2. "Good" vs "Evil" is a very simplistic/childish view of the world.
3. Karma itself is a religious concept.
4. I would dislike any system that forces you to think about moral or ethical decisions whilst playing the game, even if it's purely flavour text. (I.e. Adding a karma judgement to your actions, even if it's just a number going up or down or saying "you got more evil/good")
5. There are people who would feel bad, one way or another, for picking a certain choice.
6. I feel there shouldn't be a reward for being "good" or "evil" because of the above points. That would make the system pointless to most players.
7. Nuance is much more fun.
8. Animals are amoral.
9. I'm in it for the lore, personally, and having to suck it up and be purely "good" or "evil" for certain benefits would really drain the enjoyment out of giving my wolves a fleshed out personality. (I feel this way on LD, swapping between 3 reductionist karma-based personality types for my lions sucks).
There are other reasons, but since I think it will be implemented regardless, I'm mostly hoping for a complete opt out in regards to the karma system.
VagueShapes
#828
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